Asher's & Cohen's - London & Birmingham

[LisaMary]

I am trying to find out more about an Abigal Cohen (Father on 2nd marriage cert Abraham Cohen Confectioner) Also states (and on all her childrens birth certs) 1st marriage was to ? Asher who died. Literally Abigail Late Asher previously Cohen.

I have a line of Asher's from who family tradition says this ? Asher decends but I still can't find a death sometime shortly before 1844 when she remarries. That all happens in London.

From the Asher Line it is supposed to be, David Asher & Sarah Cohen get married in Birmingham in 1843 and he is stated as being a Confectioner (even though later he is a hatter) and the address given is one of Abraham Cohen's shops in Lower Temple Street Birmingham.

But I still can't actually find how these 2 legs of the family tie together. Sarah's Marriage cert states her father as Moses Cohen when family tradition had him as Emanuel.

In 1841 there is a Deborah Cohen, with daughters Aby, Sarah & Deborah Confectioners in London but no fathers name to clarify and no other cencus Abigail possibilities until she's established in her new marriage in the 1851 cencus.

Many Thanks for any info

Lisa

[kevininlondon]

Hi on this Holiday eve.. ok its not Hanukka

my gt gt grandmother was an Abigail Hart who married a Moses (later changed to Morris) Asher in1868 .. Moses was born in March 1846.. his parents were a David Asher and Sarah Cohen.. (Sarah we think was born in 1820) they also had a daughter called Deborah born on the 12th November 1850.. I understand that Davids father may have been called Meyer..

Not sure if this is of interest... Problems you have .. people at this time changed their names not just eg Edward when in fact his name was Abraham or Toledano became Daniels.. and people as today did not always get married..

regards Kevin

I am trying to find out more about an Abigal Cohen (Father on 2nd marriage cert Abraham Cohen Confectioner) Also states (and on all her childrens birth certs) 1st marriage was to ? Asher who died. Literally Abigail Late Asher previously Cohen.

I have a line of Asher's from who family tradition says this ? Asher decends but I still can't find a death sometime shortly before 1844 when she remarries. That all happens in London.

From the Asher Line it is supposed to be, David Asher & Sarah Cohen get married in Birmingham in 1843 and he is stated as being a Confectioner (even though later he is a hatter) and the address given is one of Abraham Cohen's shops in Lower Temple Street Birmingham.

But I still can't actually find how these 2 legs of the family tie together. Sarah's Marriage cert states her father as Moses Cohen when family tradition had him as Emanuel.

In 1841 there is a Deborah Cohen, with daughters Aby, Sarah & Deborah Confectioners in London but no fathers name to clarify and no other cencus Abigail possibilities until she's established in her new marriage in the 1851 cencus.

Many Thanks for any info

Lisa

[Lizzy9]

I am trying to find out more about an Abigal Cohen (Father on 2nd marriage cert Abraham Cohen Confectioner) Also states (and on all her childrens birth certs) 1st marriage was to ? Asher who died. Literally Abigail Late Asher previously Cohen.

I have a line of Asher's from who family tradition says this ? Asher decends but I still can't find a death sometime shortly before 1844 when she remarries. That all happens in London.

From the Asher Line it is supposed to be, David Asher & Sarah Cohen get married in Birmingham in 1843 and he is stated as being a Confectioner (even though later he is a hatter) and the address given is one of Abraham Cohen's shops in Lower Temple Street Birmingham.

But I still can't actually find how these 2 legs of the family tie together. Sarah's Marriage cert states her father as Moses Cohen when family tradition had him as Emanuel.

In 1841 there is a Deborah Cohen, with daughters Aby, Sarah & Deborah Confectioners in London but no fathers name to clarify and no other cencus Abigail possibilities until she's established in her new marriage in the 1851 cencus.

Many Thanks for any info

Lisa

Please can you give us more info? When/where was Abigail born, who is her 2nd husband and when/where was he born? Where did Abigail and her 2nd husband marry? Do you have a census reference for 1851? Did she have children with her first husband, if so names and when/where born, and finally can you give details of her children from her 2nd marriage.

I am unable to find a marriage for Abigail Asher in 1844, I found one for Abigail Cohen to a man named Whyte but her father was Judah Cohen

Answers to the above questions will help us to help you.

[kevininlondon]

Hi I am thinking that Sarah Cohens father was not Emmanuel but as the marriage certificate states Moses... beginning to think that we have two different familys.. but evidence is thin on the ground. one party says the parents are Emmanuel and Sophie Cohen yet another states they are Moses Cohen and Deborah Nunes Martines. the second option is interesting because their son Morris (Moses)
marrys a certain Abigail Hart whose Ancestry is the Nunes Martines family.

[phillip]

Is this of any help? I note on one family tree that Sarah Cohen's parents ( as indicated in#4) were Moses Cohen and Dove( Paloma) Martin ( Nunes Martinez) 1785-1876. I noted in "The Jewish Victorian. Genealogical information from the Jewish Newspapers 1861-70" transcribed and edited by Doreen Berger, Pub Robert Boyd 2004- Dove Martines 2 Barrows Buildings Devonshire St Mile End- she returns thanks to friends for her illness 3.6.1870. Is this Dove a relative of the Cohen/Asher?
The 1851 Census (HO107 1543 666 20- Crown Copyright,TNA) has 8 Tilley St Spitalfields- David Asher HM 34 Hatter b Rosemary Lane; Sarah wife 31 b Mile End;Moses son 5 b Spitalfields; Deborah dau 5mths b Spitalfields
The 1861 Census 3 Dorset St Spitalfields ( RG9 266 101 3 Crown Copyright,TNA)- David Asher HM 49 Hat maker b London Middx;Sarah wife 44 b London Middx;Moses son 15 b London Middx;Aron? son 8 b Birmingham Warwick;Abraham son 6 b Birmingham Warwick;Betsy dau 2 b London Middx
Free BMD has the Marriage of David Asher to Sarah Cohen June qtr 1843 Birmingham 16 331
The 1861 Census suggests that circa 1855-1859 the family were in Birmingham at least for the births of the last 2 children
The 1881 Census RG11 437 97 28 ( Crown Copyright,TNA) 1 Diner's Buildings Spitalfields has Moses Asher HM 35 Porter b Spitalfields;Abigail wife 34 Spitalfields;Sarah dau 11 Spitalfields;Joseph son 9 Spitalfields;Abraham son 5 Spitalfields;Myer son 3 Spitalfields
Phillip

[phillip]

There are researchers on British Jewry Archives- see " Dove Martines Gravesend"-23 June 2008;"Aaron Nunes Martinez" 19 Sept 2008 who are looking at the same Martines/Nunes family. One post has Sarah Martin marrying Simon Davis- Sarah being the sister of Dove and also sister to Abigail. There is a family tree with Moses Martin ( Nunes Martinez) 1786-1859 married twice - one to Sarah ( a proselyte) with children- Abigail;Isaac;Welcome;Dove;Sarah;Isaac; Moses; Abraham and 2nd marriage to Esther De Silva. Moses in 1820 is at 7 Rosemary Lane. The Marraige to Sarah is Bevis Marks 24 Sept 1807.
You might want to look at the messages and additional data I have not posted on- The reference on BJ Archives 2008 also cites a marriage to the Michael Hart line- you might want to explore additional Hart/Martin relationships.
Phillip

[kevininlondon]

Hi Phillip

Really brilliant..

Abigail was my gt gt grandmother.. so all information appreciated..

I still find the Ashers somewhat elusive, another point of interest is even though the men are askenazi the women are most certainly Sephardi... Abigails mother was a martines.. her father a Hart but whose own mother was daniel/ Martines..
By the by I love the name Dove which I can only deduce comes from the Debora or to be more correct the Hebrew spelling and pronunciation Devora..

I think Phillip you have confirmed my own feelings about Morris's parents ... but still where did the Ashers come from...

A few days ago I was contacted by a very nice lady in the States asking about a Teresa Ascher and Simon Cohen who came to Birmingham from Poland in the 1860's married and moved on to America.. in fact the same year as Morris and Abigail were married 1868. But she got me thinking... Sarah Cohen and David Asher also got married in Birmingham.. What was so special about Birmingham... why would two people come from Poland and marry in Birmingham.. It has a certain feel about it and coincidence is not one...

One final note... its interesting how patterns emerge and occupations.. the Toledano / Martinez family were heavily into the Circus and entertainment... yep my brother was an actor and my father had a strength act.. and a great aunt was a singer.. when I start digging I discover there is nothing knew.

then I find out we were also fishmongers.. ...

Concluding what you are confirming is that the Sephardi side did not exactly marry out when they wed an Ashkenazi they were in fact marrying family !

regards Kevin

[phillip]

Kevin
I spotted the Christian marriage of an Abigail Hasher maiden name Cohen who was a widow. See what you make of the following data:
Sept qtr 1844 St Olave 4 488 Abigail Hasher to Richard John Rentell
Their marriage record details:
25 August 1844 Parish Church St John's Surrey
Abigail Hasher full age widow St John's- father Abraham Cohen Confectioner
Richard John Rentell full age batchelor Oilman St John's - father Richard Rentell Butcher
Abigail signed her name with an x

I wondered if her married name was in fact Asher. You will note the link to Cohen Confectioner her father

1841 Census H0107 710 11 ( Crown Copyright,TNA)
Tenter St Spitalfields
Deborah Cohen confectioner 30 b in county;Aby Cohen 30 confectioner b in county;Sarah Cohen 20 confectioner b in county;Deborah Cohen 20 confectioner b in county;Julia Cohen 5 b in county- this records relates to #1 of this thread.
Phillip

[phillip]

For researchers seeking early data on Sephardic lines see "The Mahamed as an Arbitration Court". Edgar Samuel Jewish Historical Studies Vol 41 2007 ( online). I noted reference to Aaron Nunes Martines marrying Dinah Cohen 1793 plus a range of names in early records. See also on British Jewry Archives a range of posts relating to the Nunes Martinez families.
From Synagogue Scribes GSM 315/42 the marriage 8 June 1836 between Rachel Martin - father's Hebrew name Isaac Nunes Martines to Joseph Hart -father's Hebrew name Isaac.
Phillip

[phillip]

Further data related to #1
Abraham Cohen Confectioner appears in the Birmingham Trade Directories: 1845 PO Directory 80 New St and 45 Dudley Street and 14 Low Temple St. In 1850 White's Directory Warwick Abraham Cohen confectioner 23 Lower Temple St. In 1843 PO Directory London there is a Jacob Cohen confectioner 86 St John's Clerkenwell.Abraham Cohen confectioner appears in 1841 14 Temple St Pigot's Directory of Birmingham; 1849 PO Directory 9 Small Brook St.
He also appears in 1851 Census HO107 2055 165 3( Crown Copyright,TNA)
9 Small Brook St Birmingham- Abraham Cohen H M 42 Confectioner b Middx London;Hannah wife 44 b Middx London;Enoch son u18 at home b Middx London; Benjamin son 13 scholar b Middx London;Joseph son 11 b Birmingham; Julia Olsher? niece 12 shop assistant b Middx London
I assume Julia is an Asher.
Phillip