St Mary's Catholic Church, Clapham.

[DocDAve]

I encountered a human brick wall at St Mary's Church in Clapham, Wandsworth on the telephone when I politely enquired if the parish registers had survived.

THe Catholic church there was founded in 1848 as Our Immaculate Lady of Victories . I have a marriage certificate for a couple married at the church 1 Feb 1852.

Please does anybody have any information. The receptionist there yesterday informed me that they don't have them and that they were " passed on " to the GRO at Southport, which is surely a deflection and which made no sense at all.

I had also waited the customary 4 weeks having had no reply to an e-mail to the priest.

[Peter Goodey]

Assuming that 1852 isn't a typo, a Catholic church could only be registered for marriages if a registrar attended the ceremony. So the only legal marriage register would be the register belonging to the register office. The church might or might not have kept their own unofficial record which might or might not have survived.

What information do you want that isn't on the marriage certificate?

[DocDAve]

I am searching for the baptisms of a closely-related couple John and Johanna Halloran who married
in the nearby St George's and then have left me with absolutely no trace to go on - not on the 1851 census,
no baptisms in St George's - for sure - and so I thought there may be baptisms to find at the church
that James and Catherine Copps were married at 1.2.52.
Gandy made a note that here are baptisms and marriages in the registers at Immaculate Lady Of Victories hence my quest for them.

I also have an idea why James and Catherine Copps didn't marry at St Georges - they had a child born 2months before their marriage, but they were permitted (?) to have him baptized a month after the marriage. He later died aged 18 months.

[Raffaele]

When do you imagine these two were baptised. Your text suggest they married around 1850.

There is this on the IGI

JOHN HALLARAN
Birth: 12 AUG 1831
Christening: 05 SEP 1831 Saint Mary-St Marylebone Road, Saint Marylebone, London, England
Father: JOHN HALLARAN Mother: MARY
Batch C035248

[DocDAve]

John Halloran, father Richard, and Johanna Downes, were married at St George's RC in 1846 [ GRO marriage] It's their children's baptisms I search for.

I've never found them on the 1851 or 1851 Census ( there is a younger Halloran couple in Camberwell - this Johanna is nee Noonan)
and not found them in all the passenger and emigration lists I can see from 1847 onwds. Funny isn't it ?

[Raffaele]

Halloran I believe is an Irish name. I have an Irish family, same time and area, Catholic. Some of the Catholic parish records have been lost and looks like none of them made the registration which I believe was not mandatory at that time, or was resisted by the Catholic church.

If you cannot find them either on the census or on emigration lists did they return to Ireland?

[DocDAve]

It's very hard to imagine a couple returning in 1846-1851 period back to the famine.

On 1851 St George's Southwark is a John and Ann Holland ( with nephew Thomas Downes) , Irish, no children. I am starting to wonder if they might be my couple John and Johanna Halloran.
I say this because Halloran was anglicised to Holland ( see various ancestry discussion threads). Maybe maybe John used Halloran on his marriage certificate but was Holland on the Census. "Ann" might be an abbreviation for Johanna.

[Raffaele]

It's very hard to imagine a couple returning in 1846-1851 period back to the famine

If he was a farm labourer yes. The famine impoverished about a third of the population.
As with even modern recessions, a group of the population get hid hard with another group barely noticing the effects.
It depends on many factors.

Your Holland theory is quite a leap in the dark. You have to lose the children, change your surname and adapt the wife's name to make it fit. I certainly would not back that one.

[DocDAve]

There appear to have been no children - no baptisms at St George's where they were married. I am more inclined to go with the Holland from Halloran theory now. The Census entry shows a childless couple.

John Holland appears as a sponsor to a marriage of my known family John Cronin and Ann Downes in 1836 with 2nd sponsor Ann Downes ( another one).

A Johanna Downes appears as godparent at a Cronin baptism in 1840. This child Johanna born 1840 is my GGGM and became known as Ann. Johanna Downes then marries in 1846 as earlier in the thread. Here name in Cork Count ws Duane, from Ballyhay.

John Holland again appears as a godparent to a Cronin child in 1843, and there is a Thomas Downes godparent in 1846.

I would say that this man John Holland = John Halloran . THe only time his name appears as Halloran is on his marriage certificate and today I have searched a good deal to see other examples of Holland being an anglicisation of the Houlihan/Hallaron/Halloran variants.

As I have seen with Ann baptized Johanna, I am confident that Ann is an abbreviated form of Johanna.

[Mutley]

You are not giving us much in the way of birth dates in order for us to take a look for John and Johanna.

However, I did chance John Holland born about 1820ish in Ireland and the 1881 came up with a John and Johanna living in Whitecross Street in Holborn. Born Ballymonie, Cork. They have a daughter Jane age 20 and a granddaughter Johanna. The original is so dreadful I cannot make any of it out.
Anyhow, take a look
1881: RG11/Piece: 365, Folio 127, Page 28
(records held by TNA, Crown copyright)

I know they have crossed the river but it is only 6-7 miles, mine walked it.

If you would like us to help confirm your suspicions perhaps you could let us know the birthdates and occupation of John. The 1851 looks good but you need to find them before and after.