Where have these villages gone?

[AudreyF]

OK. Backtracking. Catherine Howick is my starting point. Her parents were John Howick and Edith Henson. 100% certain so far. John Howick's marriage to Edith Henson is listed on the website barriesgenealogy.co.uk which deals with marriages in St. Marys' church, Broadwater in Sussex. (I got this from a post on here). The record on line says John married Edith and his father was William a railway official. Edith's father was Luke, a shepherd although Luke was, at some point, a 'seaman'.

John Howick's birth in 1853 in Yapton is noted on the Sussex OPC website. His baptism was on 3rd July 1853 and he had a brother George Eames baptised on 3rd June 1855. Same parents, same church. Note the middle name of 'Eames' as it shows up elsewhere in census.

John Howick is in the 1861 census with his family: RG9 Piece 630, Folio 46, Page 12.
John Howick is in the 1871 census with his family: RG10 Piece 1107, Folio 94, Page 21

He marries in 1876 and in 1881 they are in Worthing with their growing family. I can track them onwards but it doesn't seem particularly relevant here, I don't think.

Audrey

[olliecat]

John Howick is in the 1861 census with his family: RG9 Piece 630, Folio 46, Page 12.
John Howick is in the 1871 census with his family: RG10 Piece 1107, Folio 94, Page 21

Posting the 1861 census details for us all to see...

1861: Piece: 630; Folio: 46; Page: 12
61 Railway Gatehouse, Chidham, Sussex
William Howick 37, railway gate keeper, Bosham Sussex
Sarah Howick 34, Emsworth Hampshire
Hannah Howick 11, Emsworth
William Howick 8, Wymering
John Howick 7, Yapton
George Howick 6, Yapton
Mary A Howick 3, Woodgate

I would say this is the same family who were in the 1851 census living in Hampshire (as posted previously.) Just so that we can compare the two...

1851: Piece: 1661; Folio: 242; Page: 15
Railway Cottage, Wymering, Hampshire
William Howick 27, railway labourer, Bosham, Sussex
Sally Howick 24, Emsworth, Hampshire
Ellen E Howick 3, Emsworth
Hannah Howick 1, Emsworth

And this looks the parent's marriage...

Marriages Mar 1849 Havant 7 141
HOWICK, William
EAMES, Sally
KENNETT, Ann
BARTER, James

Was this what you originally found Audrey, before doubts set in?

[AudreyF]

Yes, 1861 and 1851 agree - and I agree. Same family. But, I have John Howick's parents as William Howick and Sarah Howick as per the Sussex OPC baptisms for Yapton where John and brother George Eames appear. So, I didn't look at this marriage.

Audrey

[DorothySandra]

I think that should Lower Church Path, Portsea. Portsea is now known as Southsea, and Lower Church Path is still there.

Emsworth, Bosham and Fishbourne are in West Sussex, which might be shown as a separate county from East Sussex. Havant and Southsea are in Hampshire. They are all on the Portsmouth - Victoria line, which goes through Chichester.

[AudreyF]

Yes, I can see that all the places are very close to each other - some in Hampshire and some in Sussex.

In reply to Olliecat and the marriage: I didn't look for this marriage although I can see that the bride's surname is interesting. The marriage certificate I ordered for William and Sarah Howick is 1845 so I don't know what to think now. I did find reference to William and Sally in one of the census I looked at but I assumed this was an enumerator mistake or that Sarah was using another name.

I'll try and find some of the references to other census returns which have confused me and post them up here.

Audrey

[AudreyF]

An update - not necessarily helpful!

The 1841 has 'a family'. The reference is HO107, Piece 1100 Book 2 or District 2, Folio 4, Page 3, Line 14 - not sure which reference is more useful. The 'Susan' here rang a bell with the birth record found for Ellen Susan Howick.

Looking at Ellen E born in 1848 in Emsworth (Sarah’s home town) the transcription of the parish record for this christening gives the father as William Howick and the mother as ‘Sarah or Sally Ames’. Ames could be mistaken for Eames – George was baptised with the middle name Eames and Ellen (the first born) had the middle initial ‘E’ which might have been for Eames.

So, I may have a THIRD possible family??


Audrey

[olliecat]

Audrey, why not get hold of John's birth certificate. This will give you Sarah's maiden name and from that you can determine if you have the correct marriage or not. You don't want there to be any doubts.

BIRTH Jun 1853 Westhampnett 2B 286
HOWICK, John

[AudreyF]

Olliecat,

Yes, I think you're right and there is no other option - to remove all doubt. I hope! I'll post up when I have it to hand.

Audrey

[Tinker]

Audrey, is it the use of Sarah and Sally that is confusing you? Sally is simply a variation of Sarah, if that helps to clear things up. Also spelling of surnames wasn't always as consistent as it is now, so 'Eames' would very likely have appeared in several different forms, including 'Ames'. Lastly, a child that was born after one that died was often given the same (or similar) names as the dead child which might explain Ellen E and Ellen S, but be aware that in censuses, sometimes the initial of the second name has been incorrectly transcribed, e.g. 'I' or 'S' for 'J'.

[AudreyF]

Tinker,

I was, initially, a bit thrown by the appearance of a Sally (not Sarah) but decided it could be a variation, an enumerator error or simply just a 'familiar'/family name that crept in. I've considered Ames/Eames to be a mis-spelling or result of illiteracy and taken it to be just another glitch. I've always found it difficult to get to grips with the idea that people would name a child after a previous child who had died but I know it happened.

None of the things you mention above have really thrown me off course too much but looking at all the possibles and confusions I just felt I was finding too many instances of 'error' or not quite right and, perhaps, making too many allowances for ifs and maybe and might be misleading myself into a something I wanted to be right.

Audrey