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  1. #31
    glendagriffin
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    It was just an amazing feeling to have a message from a family member....and no I was not able to contact JoAnne...alto I had contact from her uncle a few months back.

    Thanks
    glenda

  2. #32
    malcolm99
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    Quote Originally Posted by malcolm99 View Post
    1911 Census>
    Residence: All Saints Street, Hastings

    They have been married 22 years and have had 6 children of whom 3 are still living.

    John Griffin, age 48, Road Sweeper (and Fish Shop Owner?), born Newcastle(?) [probably incorrect]
    Mrs Griffin, wife, age 41, born Hastings, Clements.
    Johney (sic) Griffin, son, age 12, born Hastings, Clements.
    Henry Griffin, age 6, son, born Hastings, Clements.
    Annie Griffin, daughter, age 21, single, born Hastings.
    I’ve always been intrigued by John Griffin’s occupation in the 1911 census: RG14 PN4735 SN46
    He says under ‘personal occupation’ that he is a Road Sweeper but under ‘Industry or service with which worker is connected’ he writes ‘Fish Shop’ and describes himself as an ‘Employer’.

    It’s the sort of documentary evidence that leads people to make unfounded character judgements about others (such as, was he potty? was he extracting the Michael?).

    All became clear today when I saw in Kelly’s 1911 Directory of Sussex an entry for “John Griffin, fried fish shop, 109 All Saints’ Street’ – so he swept the streets during the day and ran a chippy when he hung up his broom in the evening (and it looks quite possible that he literally ‘lived over the shop’).


    Glenda – I’m still developing a theory about John’s origins (I call it my ‘Clay Cross theory’) but could you post the exact details on the 1889 marriage certificate for John’s father (name, occupation) and the names of the witnesses. That would keep both Waitabit (#26) & myself happy for a bit.

  3. #33
    johnniegriiff
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    Dear Malcolm,

    I’m Glenda’s relative who recently joined the thread. I hope that it’s ok to respond to this. I’m currently at home recovering form surgery with some time on my hands and so thought I’d put in my ‘two penn’orth’. Apologies for I’ve probably distracted Glenda from the task. Having only just become aware of each others existence Glenda and I have been updating each other on our family strands and sharing what information we have on our ancestors away from the thread. I think we may have raised as many issues as we’ve resolved and Glenda, obviously being the more optimistic of the two of us, has provided me with counselling when I’ve been in the doldrums about the confused path John Griffin seems to have left us regarding his origins. Can I take this opportunity to thank you, Glenda, and Waitabit for providing information on the family. It’s certainly added considerably to the little that I knew of them. Just to explain that my grandfather is John Henry Griffin referred to as Johney in 1911 Census. Sadly John Henry died in 1930when my father John Richard Griffin was an infant. As a consequence dad seems to have had little subsequent contact with the Griffin family and appeared to know relatively little about them. My dad died in 2001.

    Re: your information about 109, All Saints Street having been a fish and chip shop. That is highly likely. When I was more actively researching the Griffin family, I came across an article in a local newspaper reporting on a fire at a fish and chip shop at 109, All Saints Street. I have it written down somewhere but I think was in the late 1910’s after the family had moved from the premises and John Griffin had died. I lived in Hastings for a while and the original building at 109, All Saints Street is no longer there which I think is unrelated to the fire and more to do with the War or the latter ‘development’ of Hastings Old Town.

    Re: the information you wanted from the marriage certificate. I can give you this and some of the information and discussion that Glenda and I have had on information on the family. Glenda seem to have a much better overall picture of the family than me and so no doubt will add to this.

    From the marriage certificate of John Griffin and Elizabeth Jane Boxall Hemmings in June 1889.

    Re:John Griffin.Details are: aged 24; Batchelor, Profession: Stone breaker, Residence: 6, Meadow Cottages [Tackleway]; Father’s name: John Griffin [deceased] ; Profession of Father: Hawker..

    Glenda feels that there may be a connection between ‘our’ John Griffin’ and the Newcastle Under Lyme family referred to earlier in thread, largely as names such as Elizabeth, Jane, John, Henry, regularly appear in the family; yet one of the non surviving children [I think] is named Elizabeth Bridget with Bridget being a name that comes up in NUL family. Largely due to the naval records I tend to John Griffin originating from Newmarket.

    John Griffin and Elizabeth Jane Boxall Hemmings were married in All Saints Curch which is Church of England. I also at one point felt the NUL Griffin’s were ‘our’ family and researched them somewhat and I’m aware that they’re of the Catholic faith.

    I was wondering whether John Griffin is or was in receipt of Parish Relief. Stone breaking was a task often associated with relief

    The profession of John Griffin’s father is given as ‘Hawker’. I’m not sure how common a term that is. Certainly in Sussex the term can be associated street trading such as buying and selling on things like fish, eggs, poultry etc. However I’ve also known the term to be associated with itinerant trading along the lines of a traveller or ‘gypsy’. As far as possible I’ve tried to follow up to these ‘hunches’, but without any success.

    Re: Elizabeth Jane Boxall Hemmings. Details are: Elizabeth Jane Boxall Hemmings; aged 21; spinster; Profession: servant; Residence: 6, Meadow Cottage [Tackleway]. Father James Henry Hemmings [deceased] Father’s profession: auctioneer.

    At the time of Elizabeth Jane’s birth, [28.11.1867] she is registered in Hastings in 1868 under the name Elizabeth Jane Hemmings. Her mother is given as Jane Hemmings but there are no details of the father, but as indicated are given on the marriage certificate as being James Henry Hemmings.. Jane Hemmings address at the time of registration is given as 4, Marine Parade.

    At the time of her marriage Elizabeth Jane’s name is given as Elizabeth Jane Boxall Hemmings. In the 1881 census Elizabeth Jane, but as Elizabeth Jane Boxall’ appears to be residing with an aunt; Elizabeth Boxall at 4. Marine Parade, Hastings. According to the 1861 Census and prior to Elizabeth Jane’s birth, her own mother Jane Hemmings also resided with the aunt Elizabeth Boxall also at 4, Marine Parade.

    The witnesses at the marriage were George Boxall Hemmings and Alice Boxall Hemmings I would presume their siblings to Elizabeth Jane. According to 1881 Census, George as George Boxall also resided with EJ and Elizabeth Boxall at 4, Marine Parade.. I’ve Free birth records of Alice Jane Boxall [1892] and also James Henry Hemmings [1864] but appear not to have researched these further.

    EJ's father James Henry Hemmings and her Great Aunt Elizabeth Boxall both appear to originate from Rue Sussex. Not far from Hastings

    Glenda and I have been confused by the interchangeable use of the names Boxall and Hemmings, and the relationship between the names. This is further confused in the birth certificate for John Griffin and Elizabeth Jane’s third child, James Henry Griffin, where Elizabeth Jane is referred to as Elizabeth Griffin formerly Gasson.

    Glenda is aware that there is a strong connection between the Griffin and Gasson families with an Emmanuel ‘Manny’ Gasson being extremely significant; being referred to in the family as Uncle Manny. We assume the relationship between the Gassons and Griffin’s is through Elizabeth Jane. I’ve done very cursory search on Emmnuel Gasson; I think from the 1911 Census. Re: my feeling that John Griffin has East Anglian connections: Manny’s wife Edith appears to originate from a locality in Suffolk [name escapes me] , where I’ve since found a ‘ John Griffin’, and so I’m wondering whether the Gasson - Griffin connection is through John. I’m more than aware that all aspects of the above requires a lot more looking at.

    I’d be really interested to know you Clay Cross theory.

    I hope nobody minds me responding to this, particularly Glenda and I hope that the information I’ve given is not too irrelevant

    Once again thanks to everyone for their information and interest.

    John

  4. #34
    malcolm99
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    Hello John

    It’s good to hear from you and thank you for all the extra information you’ve given in your message. There are some interesting pointers there which may help me and others of the Forum to see if we can find out a bit more about the families.

    I’ll be back with some of my thoughts when I’ve had time to digest it all.

    The one thing that’s bugging everyone is John’s place of birth:

    1911 - Newcastle, To?n(?)
    - but this has been filled in by the enumerator. It looks as though John left it blank (because he didn’t know? - and thought he could get away with a blank return?). When the enumerator went back to ask John (which he obviously did) John said something beginning with ‘New’ and the enumerator did the best he could. But Newcastle To?n doesn’t really make sense. (I’ve looked hard at quite a number of examples of the enumerator’s handwriting on various address sheets in the same street and this is the closest I can get).

    1901 - Derbys[hire] New Market. This one I rather like. The words after New Market on the census return are the enumerator’s “Query Camb” meaning the East Anglian Newmarket. What’s interesting though is the definite nature of the word ‘Derbyshire’. If this is what John Griffin appeared to say then it’s not a county that would automatically spring to mind if you were making up a place of birth. If it is what he said then John must have some knowledge of Derbyshire. My very tenuous Clay Cross theory is that there is a small settlement just to the west of Clay Cross called Newmarket and the 1884 OS map shows it as having several houses/dwellings and a colliery (go to https://www.
    old-maps.co.uk/index.html
    and just enter Clay Cross in the Search Box]. I then made a connection with a John Griffin who is on the 1881 Census [RG11/3429 fol. 56 p. 23] as being 19, a coal miner and born in Shirland which is just down the road from Clay Cross. I liked this, but it may be pure bunkum of course!

    1891 - Shoreham, Sussex. Part of Shoreham was called ‘New Shoreham’ until 1910 and so there is a “New” connection there but I have a feeling this is a rogue response to the place of birth question.

    WW1 Newmarket. The only other definite place name we have is from (presumably) 1914/1915 on his naval record. That is quite clearly Newmarket. That’s why Derbyshire or East Anglia are, I think, the most likely candidates – the name is mentioned on at least 2 different records quite some time apart (as Mutley suggested, I think Ireland is ruled out because I’m sure that would have been mentioned at some point).

    That’s as far as I’ve got. I was very interested in the Gasson connection – what astonishes me is Elizabeth Jane’s name on James Henry’s birth certificate. Could you look out the certificate and tell me who the informant was?

    I’ve had a cursory look at Edith Gasson (née Miles) and have found her baptism (in Wendling, Norfolk) and a couple of other things – but they can wait.

    I think that’s enough from me for the moment. I hope your recovery is going well.

    Best wishes

  5. #35
    johnniegriiff
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    Malcolm,

    Thanks for all of this. I'd looked at the Derbyshire Newmarket option but think that I was being rather blinkered. I've followed up on your Clay Cross/ Shirland leads and have ordered a birth certificate for a John Griffin which appears to fit the bill better than anything hitherto.I'll keep you updated.

    Re: the informant for for information on James Henry is recorded as being Elizabeth Jane herself.

    Once again thanks enormously for your thoughts, help and advice.

    John

  6. #36
    malcolm99
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    Fingers crossed!

  7. #37
    johnniegriiff
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    Malcolm,

    Just a quick update. Unfortunately the birth certificate I requested for the John Griffin in the Clay Cross area appears not to be related to 'our' John Griffin. It was for a John Griffin born in 1864 of parents Michael and Agnes. Your Clay Cross theory continues still to be as viable as any though! Out of a combination of desperation and interest I've been exploring the 'hawker' connection of my great, great, grandfather John Griffin as referred to on his son's marriage certificate. As I previously referred to; 'hawker' possibly refers to street trader or either a traveller/'gypsy'. Re: the former: there seems to have been an active 'hawker' trade in the late 1800's in Hastings and from relevant press reference I can find there is reference to a 'persecution' of street hawkers although nothing has come up under the name Griffin. Re. the latter: there is an excellent site called I think Romanygenes, which provides names of 'hawkers' referred to in census returns. The 1881 census indicates a ’hawker’ Turner Math Griffin in the Clay Cross area. So who knows?

    Glenda and I feel that we may have in part solved some the mystery regarding our great grandmother Elizabeth Jane Griffin referring to herself as formerly Elizabeth Jane Hemmings, Boxall, Boxall – Hemmings, or Gasson; and the significance of Emmanuel Gasson or ‘Uncle Manny’ as he seems to have been known within the family. It appears that Manny is the child of Elizabeth Jane’s mother Jane Hemmings who married a James Henry Gasson in 1881.Therefore Elizabeth Jane and Manny would be half brother and sister. James Henry appears to be a very interesting character who originates from Rye, Sussex and is regularly referred to as an insolvent in the pages of the London Gazette of 1848 and 1861 and as a consequence spent times in various ‘gaols!

    Unless a very strong lead comes up for John Griffin’s origins, I’ve decided that I’m currently going to concentrate on the Hemmings line, and the seeming connection between the Hemmings and Boxall families. My great great grandmother Jane Hemmings also originates from Rye. As always there are anomalies in the information from census’s and certificates relating to her, but they’re probably easier to solve than the mysteries of John Griffin’s origins.

    As always Glenda and I would be interested to know your thoughts on any of the above, or the thoughts of other subscribers.

    Regards and many thanks

    John

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