Is it possible a mistake was made somewhere?

[Colin Rowledge]

From London, England, Marriages and Banns 1754-1921, there is a reference and copy of the actual register for a marriage that took place on March 5, 1871, following Banns on February 5, 12 & 19, 1871 This was in the Parish Church at Lambeth St. Mary, Lambeth.

The GRO record which has been transcribed on both FMP and Ancestry has a marriage that took place In St. Giles, London - Oct.-Dec.q. 1858 vol. 1B page 589.

There are miniscule transcription errors in the surnames, but these are so minor that it would appear to be the same couple.

The 1871 marriage I cannot locate in the GRO/BMD Index and the 1858 one I cannot locate anywhere else.

My 1st thought was that in 1858 they married in a Civil ceremony and then later in a Church Wedding. The Banns would be announced and technically, she was a Spinster and he a Widower at the time of the marriage in 1858, which is how it was described in the register.

Question

Should i buy the certificate from 1858 from the GRO using the name of one of the parties from the reference above

What would appear to be the couple from the 1858 marriage appear as husband and wife in the 1861 census and 1871 census, with children and then his wife dies in 1880.

How should I proceed apart from spending money on certificates resolve this?

Colin

[Pam Downes]

Colin, if you want help with this query then we need names.
I know there are some brilliant detectives on this forum but they are not mind readers.

Unless the names of bride and groom are really, really, unusual, then it's possible that there is more than one couple with those names who married.

Pam

[Coromandel]

You need to polish your crystal ball a bit harder, Pam.

Mine tells me we might be talking about Archer Whiting, who does appear in the GRO index in 1871 (Lambeth district) with an Eliza Closson on the same page.

(Is this the couple you meant, Colin? If so, does their address in the church register tie in with where you know your people were living on the 1871 census?)

[arthurk]

The brilliant Coromandel has beaten me to it with the identification, but I'll post this anyway as it's different.

Is it Archer WHITING and Eliza? Comparison with the 1851 Census suggests that Archer was at that time married to Margaret nee MALIN, and there is a possible death for her in the Marylebone district in 1855. (This was on a quick search, so I don't know if there might be any others.)

When a second marriage ceremony takes place it's usually because of a real or suspected irregularity in the first one, but in such cases it would be usual for there to be some kind of note in the register for the second event to that effect.

What might be most useful would be to get a signature from the first marriage to compare with that from 1871, and to do that you would need to apply to Camden Register Office, which holds the registers of the old St Giles district. However, without knowing where the marriage took place, they might not be able or willing to help you - unless they have their own computerised index. I know it would cost money, but you might perversely have to order the GRO certificate first in order to find out the venue, and the GRO certificate won't have a signature because it will be a copy of a return sent in by a registrar (or clergyman).

Incidentally (assuming this is the right marriage), it does appear in the GRO index for 1871: search for Archer Whiting only, and FreeBMD gives the bride's surname as CLOSSON. (I think the register has COSSON.)

I suspect what might have happened is that they had a register office ceremony in 1858, and Archer promised his wife a "proper" church wedding later - but proving it may be another matter. I'm not sure if it should have been recorded at all in 1871, but if that was the right thing to do, I think that the minister ought to have made a note about it. It's possible there might be a note in the other copy of the register, which would have been sent to the Lambeth registrar when it was full, or on the clergyman's quarterly return which would eventually have been forwarded to the GRO, and on which one of their certificates would be based.

Arthur
(also brilliant???)

[Colin Rowledge]

Yes you all are brilliant - my titfer is off to yous-all [as usual]

However, I'm not sure why at 11.00pm last night I could not find it in the the GRo [except possibly, I was trying to link a Cosson or Casson with Archer]

Archer was with Margaret and their daughter also named Margaret in 1851. He was with Eliza in 1861 and '71

Colin

[Pam Downes]

Coromandel - I freely admit that my crystal ball has become somewhat tarnished lately, but even though you and Arthur both managed to find the details so quickly (and to you both for that) I'm sure that you would admit that names would have made the job even easier.

Colin - from what a very quick glance at some of the names in the 1858 December quarter tell me, it's possible that not all the church registers for the St Giles registration district are online. (I'm not sure how many churches there were in the registration district). And if Archer married in the Register Office that marriage register is highly unlikely to ever appear online. A marriage in a non-conformist church/chapel might be online.
Marriages with page numbers between 543 and 571 inclusive took place at St George Bloomsbury. (Note that these page numbers are relevant to that church for December quarter 1858 only. The numbers may be similar in other quarters, but the precise range may vary.)

Pam

[Colin Rowledge]

You need to polish your crystal ball a bit harder, Pam.

Mine tells me we might be talking about Archer Whiting, who does appear in the GRO index in 1871 (Lambeth district) with an Eliza Closson on the same page.

(Is this the couple you meant, Colin? If so, does their address in the church register tie in with where you know your people were living on the 1871 census?)

There address at the time of the Church Wedding was Palace Yard. As the event was in Lambeth St. Mary, Surrey, it looks like they were living there for a time and moved afterwards. The 1871 census [a month later] has them at what looks like 5, Dorset Mews, Christchurch.

[Pam Downes]

There address at the time of the Church Wedding was Palace Yard. As the event was in Lambeth St. Mary, Surrey, it looks like they were living there for a time and moved afterwards. The 1871 census [a month later] has them at what looks like 5, Dorset Mews, Christchurch.

In the 1871 census is that they are living in Marylebone registration district in the civil parish of Marylebone; Christchurch being the ecclesiastical parish. Marylebone is north of the river (Thames).
Lambeth is south of the river.

Pam

[Pam Downes]

Interesting that there is a job lot of baptisms for Archer's children in 1859. All at St George's Bloomsbury, and including Margaret, the daughter of Archer and Margaret (nee Malin).

Pam

[Colin Rowledge]

In the 1871 census is that they are living in Marylebone registration district in the civil parish of Marylebone; Christchurch being the ecclesiastical parish. Marylebone is north of the river (Thames).
Lambeth is south of the river.

Pam

Yes, Pam, this is they [poor English, I know] and I appreciate you letting me know the geographical locations of both Marylebone and Lambeth.

In 1861 census, at #3 Crown Street, St. Giles in the Fields, he and Eliza have the following children with them - Margaret [11] from his marriage to Margaret Malin + Elizabeth [4], Arthur J [3] [mistranscribed as I believe his name was Archer John - after his father] and Edward H [1]

Next to arrive was Henrietta Emily in the summer of 1861. She is the maternal grandmother of the wife of my grand uncle.