Robert Alfred b.1894 = Alfred Leonard Watson?

[thewideeyedowl]

A v quick search on FreeBMD revealed one potential marriage for Robert A Watson between 1919-1929:
https://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search...19&action=Find.

Hoping that the link will work! It's the marriage between a Robert A Watson and an Isabella Bailey registered in Newcastle in the Sep Qtr of 1925.

Owl

PS Got back earlier than anticipated, just before the rain started.

[gilian rowland]

Owl

Again, very grateful for your input - it all sounds exciting! The marriage needs to be investigated but not sure how!
What I find difficult is that Registrars won't give info and say one has to buy a certificate so what does one
do in a case like this since one can't feasibly order a certificate on a vague (no offence!) chance.
Also since family say they think he divorced then remarried where would I find divorce listed? It is believed
he had a daughter Carol but don't know whether from the first or second marriage. Jill

[thewideeyedowl]

Good morning...

=gilian rowland;593491 Owl

What I find difficult is that Registrars won't give info and say one has to buy a certificate so what does one
do in a case like this since one can't feasibly order a certificate on a vague (no offence!) chance.
Also since family say they think he divorced then remarried where would I find divorce listed? It is believed
he had a daughter...

Registrars are not here to do your research for you! This is why you need to find as much info as poss before applying, but even then you might discover that you have bought the wrong cert. Ouch! It has happened to me, and many others.

You can search and search through FreeBMD for possible marriages; my quick search was filtered to a 10-year period and a single county.

You can try to find a birth for any children of a Watson/Bailey marriage, because after 1911 the mother's maiden name is shown. Just try it and see. (And remember not to mention the name of anyone who might still be alive - for instance, this cousin - in the open forum.)

As for tracing a divorce - very, very difficult. I'll leave that for someone else to help with.

Owl

[thewideeyedowl]

Robert Alfred Watson (known as Alf to family) was born in Heaton, Newcastle-upon-Tyne in the December quarter of 1894. (Awaiting birth cert.) He was the son of Joseph Watson and his wife, Elizabeth nee Hughes. It seems to have been a mining family: in the 1911 census father Joseph was a colliery horsekeeper and Robert was a pony driver, both doing these jobs underground. Robert would have been 16 at the time of that census, so he might have had a more advanced job in the mine by 1914. That is conjecture. I have found, from Wikipedia and The Long Long Trail, that miners were recruited into the Royal Engineers; they were prized for their tunnelling skills and ability to work underground.

A photograph of Robert A Watson is posted in #1, and info has been garnered from uniform, setting, and the family story that he was 'in India'. The man in the photograph looks to be about 30(?), wearing possibly 'best' tropical uniform in a studio setting. There is no info about the studio. From his medal ribbon, insignia and the Sam Browne belt, an expert at TNA has suggested that this man was at least a staff sergeant but could be a WO2; see #12. He has the ribbon bar for three medals. His hair seems to have a sort of dressing to make it flat and shiny, and he is holding a lighted(?) cigarette, possibly a roll-up, in his left hand.

IF this picture was taken in the mid-1920s, when Robert would have been 30-ish, then it looks as if he stayed on in the army after WW1, in which case his records will still be with MOD. The fact that he had three medals is a good clue; and that he is wearing the ribbon bar suggests that he is still in service.

He has eluded me, and other researchers, on Ancestry. I clicked on a MIC for a Robert A Watson, but it wasn't the right chap. I therefore started to scroll through the pages looking for someone with this name who qualified for three medals and had served in a 'tropical' location, see post #14. That R(obert) A Watson, an acting sgt, was awarded the Victory, British, and 15 Star; and had entered the Egypt theatre on 18 Nov 1915. That might fit. Or it might not. I didn't scroll any further, but obviously there may be other men with that name, or version of the name, who were also awarded three medals. So this needs much more research. The man on that MIC was in the Royal Engineers and then the Royal Irish Fusiliers. Well, did our Robert join the RE because he was a miner (even though most of his workmates are likely to have joined the Northumberland Fusiliers)?

My guess is that - IF this is the right man - he stayed on in the army after the end of WW1, got promotions and enjoyed the lifestyle. This took him away from his Newcastle/mining roots, and he wasn't minded to go back or have much/any contact with his family.

This thread really needs other folk to look at it now - please, please some expert military help, because we have got about as far as we can get. This is fast becoming a bit of a exercise!

Owl

[gilian rowland]

Thanks Owl so much for your last two postings. Re the first - yes will plod on trying to find out about him somehow or another!

Your last post - you have done an incredible job updating and collating all the information and I'm very grateful.
That's made an enormous difference to this site and it's a great help to have concise information.

Don't hibernate! with thanks Jill

[gilian rowland]

Two points to add to this saga:

1) I have now received the birth certificate for ROBERT ALFRED WATSON. He was born 5th September 1894 at
1 Bolingbroke Street, Newcastle on Tyne. Father Joseph Watson, a yeast salesman. Mother Elizabeth Watson nee Hughes.
Hope this can help with finding him!

2) In Owl's wonderful summing up of information posted on 3.8.14 post number 24 Ref the 1911 census.
Joseph the Father in fact died in 1899. The Joseph in the census is Joseph Edwin one of the sons.
Jill

[thewideeyedowl]

We now know that the suggested marriage was wrong. Back to Square One...

An elderly relative thought that Robert Alfred (Alf, to family) had been in India, so I have tried to find some Indian records, without any real success. The useful website of Families In British India (fibis) produced two brief marriage reports from The Times of India - a Robert Watson to Kathleen Sabinn Schembray on 4 Nov 1916, and a Robert Watson to unspecified on 1 Feb 1917. No middle name for either, so I think we can discount them.

Have also found that there is a small set of India Office Records: https://indiafamily.bl.uk/UI/about.aspx. (These are held by the British Library.)

This still isn't getting us anywhere - or, at least, I don't think it is - but it opens up another front in this long campaign to find Robert Alfred Watson.

Off to roost.

Owl

[gilian rowland]

Thanks again Owl very good of you to have done this research. Before going down the Indian road I will
wait to hear from the MOD re the MIC you so kindly found - don't know why finding him is so elusive!
Jill

[gilian rowland]

Dear Owl

1) Well I have now heard from the MOD that the MIC you found is NOT my relative ROBERT ALFRED WATSON from Newcastle.
Nor can they find him since they now say "The MOD holds
records of those who left the Army in January 1921 or later and Officers who left the Army after March 1922.
Earlier records at the National Archives."

So I have gone round in a complete circle because it was the NA who referred me to the MOD a couple of years ago.
Then the MOD couldn't start a trace without an exact dob or regiment so having now obtained the birth certificate just to
get the day and month he was born they say the above - so don't think I can find out anything else on that front.

What I still don't know is WHY he would have been in India ie who was posted out there.

2) My relative can't shed any further light on finding RAW as she now thinks that he may have lived with someone before
marrying. I thought that since it is believed he had a daughter Carol that it would be easy to find him. I tried FreeBMD
for both her birth/death and his death but could't work out how to access the information since it didn't ask for a lot of info.

I thought it would be easy to at least find out about him and his possible family but it seems impossible.


3) One possible hope is that I was referred to the Tyne & Wear Archives who I find have a photo on their web site
of "Dining Hall, Newcastle, Kitchener's Recruits" so wait to hear from them as to whether they can help.

So I have to admit defeat which is a shame as I so wanted to tell my 93 year old relative I had found out about her Uncle.
Jill

[thewideeyedowl]

I'm really sorry that we have achieved next to nothing on this investigation. All I can now suggest is that you try Genes Reunited, FMP's smaller brother. There are several grades of membership, this should take you to the T&C page: https://www.genesreunited.co.uk/conte...sandconditions. As you will see, you might - just might(!) - start to get somewhere if you enter info as a Free Member.

As said elsewhere, Lost Cousins can be very useful. There is a thread on it on BritGen.

Swooping off now.

Owl