1841 Folio and piece numbers

[Steve Ley]

Hi, I hope someone will be able to help with a small problem i have.
I have got the 1841 from Archive CD Books (quality is excellent !) and i also have the 1841 index from NFHS, My problem is that i searching for the name Pedley and i have 4 families to look at

861 6
861 22

870 5-05
870 6-39

I found the first 2 but i cannot find the last 2 i don't understand why there is 2 numbers for the folio, Can someone explain what i am doing wrong ?

Steve.

[Geoffers]

I don't have the index and don't know how it is arranged - but if I explain something about how the original census is grouped, then you might be able to adapt the information to work out an answer to your specific problem.

The original census returns are in the care of the National Archives, their references consist of a class number (think of this as being a large file) and a piece number (a document within the file), for census returns the folios and pages are numbered.

All 1841 census returns are prefixed HO107, this is the class number

The country is then spilt down into districts, which I would guess is the 860 part of your reference.

Each parish of a district is then numbered - combined with the district, this gives the piece number.

So HO107/860/5 would be a class/piece number for a specific parish.

The census return for each parish then has a folio number, the heavy type figure appearing in the top right corner of every other page; and a page number which appears centrally at the top of each page.

So a full reference for an 1841 census might be written HO107/860/5 6-39.

In my experience, some indexes just give the piece and folio number as a reference (in the above example this would be 860/5 6), others give the folio and page (e.g. 860/5 6-39).

Just in case you ever come across them, some indexes give the folio/page reference as 6v or 6r, where the 'v' stands for verso and 'r' for recto.

Some people wonder why there are folio and page numbers. A completed census for a parish was returned and bound with other census returns from the same district. It in effect became a chapter within a larger book, and each chapter's pparish.

I hope you can work out the answer to your problem from the above, but if not feel free to drop me a line and I'll see if I can explain it any better.

Geoffers
Charlbury, Oxfordshire

[Rod Neep]

Hi, I hope someone will be able to help with a small problem i have.
I have got the 1841 from Archive CD Books (quality is excellent !) and i also have the 1841 index from NFHS, My problem is that i searching for the name Pedley and i have 4 families to look at

861 6
861 22

870 5-05
870 6-39

I found the first 2 but i cannot find the last 2 i don't understand why there is 2 numbers for the folio, Can someone explain what i am doing wrong ?

Steve.

HOW I WISH !! that people, and especially family history societies,
would quote census references *properly* !!

The correct format for an 1841 census reference is:
HO107/
Piece number
- Book number
Folio
Note:
*page* numbers are not used, as there are lots of books with the same
page numbers!
*Enumerator's District* (ED) numbers are not used because there are
*lots* of ED3 19 ..... a page 19 .... in many books. (And many books
also contain a *folio* 19)
The correct format of a census reference for 1841 is:
HO107/ 856-9 19
(NOT 3-19 856) ! The NFHS used ED numbers.
so.... you can be totally forgiven for being confused. Because the
reference number was stated in the NFHS index *completely* incorrectly,
and you would have one heck of a job finding the real page of the census
for your ancestors.
Regards
Rod

[jeannie]

HOW I WISH !! that people, and especially family history societies, would quote census references *properly* !!
<snip>
Because the reference number was stated in the NFHS index *completely* incorrectly, and you would have one heck of a job finding the real page of the census for your ancestors.

Does this mean that there is no point buying the Notts FHS index to help find people in the ACDB census? Thanks

[Peter Goodey]

<snipped>
Note:
*page* numbers are not used, as there are lots of books with the same
page numbers!
<snipped>

My understanding of the official National Archives recommendation is that the full reference should include either the page number or recto/verso.

It's perhaps worth emphasising that a book number is only needed for 1841 because for that census each enumerator's book was foliated separately and therefore there would be several folios numbered 14 (say) in a particular piece. In subsequent years the entire piece was foliated from beginning to end and there would only be one folio number 14 in a piece.

[Rod Neep]

Does this mean that there is no point buying the Notts FHS index to help find people in the ACDB census? Thanks

No... it is very useful to have, but because the references are not "normal" ones it makes it difficult to use. I gather however, that the NFHS no longer sell the index, whereas they always used to, and have done for years.

Rod

[Steve Ley]

Thanks for everyone's reply,

The census return for each parish then has a folio number, the heavy type figure appearing in the top right corner of every other page; and a page number which appears centrally at the top of each page.

So a full reference for an 1841 census might be written HO107/860/5 6-39.

That is what i thought it meant but i still could not find the entry.

Does this mean that there is no point buying the Notts FHS index to help find people in the ACDB census?

They are still very useful as i was able to find 2 of the entries i was looking
for, But as Rod says they are not for sale but were a couple of months ago.

I will have to search through, it I'm helped a bit though as the index gave me the Road they are on.

Steve.