Carver & Gilder

[cotswold mike]

My first question(s) on this forum so please be gentle

Am I right in assuming that, in the mid 19th Century, someone described as a carver gilder would be likely to be doing bespoke work for customers at "the top end of the market"? In particular, might he be directly employed at a cathedral.

And a related question, would father (and later son) being married at Manchester Cathedral be a 'perk of the job' or a possible indication of social status? Ditto for a marriage at St Martins in the Fields (London) by someone who might be a member of the same clan (a pair of families who surnames seem to be paired surprisingly often).

[Kerrywood]

Hi, and welcome to the forums!

Am I right in assuming that, in the mid 19th Century, someone described as a carver gilder would be likely to be doing bespoke work for customers at "the top end of the market"? In particular, might he be directly employed at a cathedral.

I don't think you can assume that. He might have worked for himself, or for another firm, and the work might have been at any end of the market.

Have a look at this sticky for some useful online resources describing various occupations.

And a related question, would father (and later son) being married at Manchester Cathedral be a 'perk of the job' or a possible indication of social status?

Not at all. I believe Manchester Cathedral (formerly Collegiate Church) served a huge area and a varied clientele. At one time I believe it had a reputation for offering quick-and-easy, no-fuss marriages without too many questions asked, and for that reason attracted couples from a widespread area. So, if anything, rather the opposite of what you're suggesting.

Ditto for a marriage at St Martins in the Fields (London) by someone who might be a member of the same clan (a pair of families who surnames seem to be paired surprisingly often).

Similarly, St Martin-in-the-Fields was a huge parish, and a wide range of people have always married there, from the aristocracy to your ordinary man-in-the-street, and all things in between.

Not a very helpful answer, I'm afraid! If you want to post a more specific query, perhaps on one of the relevant county boards, it might be easier to give you more help?

[cotswold mike]

... Not a very helpful answer, I'm afraid! ...

On the contrary - I must not make assumptions! (x20)

Many thanks

[Kerrywood]

The carvers and gilders among my lot were mainly involved with picture frame making.

If he did have his own business, he might have an entry in a trade directory. You could try searching here ...

historicaldirectories.org/hd/index.asp (put www. in front)

Also, Parish Chest has many directories on CD.

[cotswold mike]

Thank you Kerrywood. The Carver & Gilder that I have in mind, Thomas William Mooney (1841-1845 - Manchester) appears to have left his widow and children very well provided for. I have made a mental note that a search of the appropriate directories would seem worth while.

[Kerrywood]

The Carver & Gilder that I have in mind, Thomas William Mooney (1841-1845 - Manchester) appears to have left his widow and children very well provided for.

In that case, you might want to consider looking at wills.

If I have the right person ... Thomas William MOONEY seems to have inherited the business from his father James. In 1871 he's employing one man and one boy in Manchester and has a business partner (RG10/4063 folio 130 page 51, reference to record held by TNA).

Thomas William seems to have died young (1879, Hastings) and doesn't appear to have left a will.

But (again if I have the right person) his father James did leave a will in 1866. According to the probate calendar ...

20 November 1866
The will of James Mooney late of 2 Molier-terrace Great-Clowes-street Lower Broughton Manchester in the County of Lancaster Gentleman deceased who died 7 October 1866 at 2 Molier-terrace aforesaid was proved at the Principal Registry by the oaths of Thomas Mooney of 10 Albert-terrace in the City of Manchester Carver and Gilder the Son and Maria Mooney of 2 Molier-terrace aforesaid Spinster the Daughter the Executors. Effects under £200.

If you haven't already seen that will, it would probably give you some indication of the extent of James MOONEY's business. If you need information on how to order a copy of a will, please click here.

As well as directories, you could try searching the archives of the London Gazette (google for it), which has information on business matters such as dissolution of partnerships and bankruptcies and can provide useful background information.

Also the the British Library's 19th Century Newspapers database, for trade advertisements, business notices etc.

newspapers.bl.uk/blcs/ (a paysite, put https:// in front)

You can probably get free access to the newspaper archive at home, through membership of your county library service
https://www.gloucestershire.gov.uk/li...rticleid=96190

[cotswold mike]

William Thomas Mooney is my grandfather. Whether or not my father was the black-sheep of the family I doubt I shall ever know but he was certainly a man who marched to the beat of a different drummer. At the moment the period between 1891 and 1912 is blank - well not quite blank - he produced a half-sister the same age as my mother, but both are now long departed.

[Kerrywood]

At the moment the period between 1891 and 1912 is blank - well not quite blank

I'm not sure from what you say whether you are actively seeking help with this point?

If you are, and if you care to post further details of your father and grandfather from census returns and any BMD certificates that you have, I'm sure members will do their very best to help you fill the gap -- or indeed any other gaps.

We do have some very determined gap-fillers among our members.