Am I looking in the wrong place for CLAY?

[Colin Rowledge]

It's been a while since I posted but can't seem to find what would appear to be a relatively simple exercise.

Catharine CLAY is my 3rd ggrand mother. She was baptised June 5, 1814 at Clerkenwell St. John in Borough of Islington. She was the daughter of Thomas and Elizabeth. This is from London, England, Births and Baptisms 1813-1906.

She married Robert Rowledge on April 8, 1832 at St. John the Baptist, Pinner, in the Borough of Harrow, Surrey after Banns. They were both residents of the Parish. This is from London, England, Marriages and Banns1754-1921. No parent information is recorded on the document. One of the 2 witnesses is indicated as Thos. CLAY. To me, it seems unlikely that her father would be a witness, so I have concluded that this Thos. is her brother

I found a baptism for a Thomas Clay, on December 25, 1806 in the Parish of St. Leonard Shoreditch, in the Borough of Hackney. He was the son of Thomas and Elizabeth. Same source as the earlier baptism.

Now the situation gets a little 'muddy'.

A Thomas CLAY was found on the 1841 census in Grantham, Lincolnshire. He was born in county, a Draper by profession and living at his place of business on High Street, Grantham with his wife Hannah and 7 children. His age has been rounded as 40. His eldest child on the census is Thomas age 15.

A Thomas CLAY was found on the 1841 census in Harrow on the Hill, Middlesex. He was not born in County and his occupation is a Carpenter. There is no spouse listed, but there is a son shown. His age has been rounded to 60. The son's name is Thomas and his age is shown as 14.

Q- Could the Thomas on the 1841 census as a draper, have been born in Grantham and moved St. Leonard Shoreditch with his parents and been baptised there?

Now the census for 1851:
In Grantham, Hannah is now a widow. She is indicated as age 52. Her son Thomas and 3 of her other children are there. She is running the business that Thomas started and has several employees living with her

I have found 3 deaths for a Thomas Clay in Grantham in the period 1842-1850 but as no ages are stated, cannot determine which if any is her spouse. The dates were April-June q 1846, January-March q. 1848 and October-December q. 1848.

In Harrow on the Hill, Thomas is now listed with a spouse Elizabeth. He gives his place of birth as Grantham and his age is 70. This spouse [Elizabeth] is age 60 and indicates that she was born in St. George's, Middlesex in 1791. A son Edward age 16, born in Rickmansworth is living with them

Q - Could this be his 2nd marriage and each spouse named Elizabeth?

I hope this post isn't too confusing. If I have confused anyone, please let me know

Colin

[MarkJ]

No parent information is recorded on the document. One of the 2 witnesses is indicated as Thos. CLAY. To me, it seems unlikely that her father would be a witness, so I have concluded that this Thos. is her brother

I don't see why it would be unlikely Colin. At my own wedding, my father in law was a witness.

Not that I am saying that Thomas WAS the father of the bride - just that I would not discount it.

Mark

[Pam Downes]

Why one of the two Thomas Clays in Grantham in 1841? Why not any of the other 18 Thomas Clays born 1800 +/- 5 years that are found in the 1841 England census? I don't follow your logic, Colin.

Without wishing to muddy the waters still further, as I don't think the living-in-Grantham-with-Hannah Thomas has the least relevance and connection to Catherine:-
As regards the deaths of the various Thomases in Grantham registration district, I would think your best bet is the one who died December quarter 1843. Buried East Allington 5 November 1843, aged 49. Memorial inscription also includes Thomas Bensham, Dalton Joseph, and Samuel, infant sons of Thomas and Hannah. A Thomas Henshaw CLAY was buried East Allington in 1824. Pallots marriage index says Thomas Clay married Hannah RENSHAW 13 October 1823 in Newark (Nottinghamshire). All information taken from indexes, so will need checking to PRs, if you still think they are relevant. (East Allington PRs can be ordered in at either of the LDS FHCs in your locality.)
Pam

[AnjaliUK]

Q- Could the Thomas on the 1841 census as a draper, have been born in Grantham and moved St. Leonard Shoreditch with his parents and been baptised there?

Could be, but there's plenty of Thomas Clays +/-5 in or closer to London. Too many in fact, I don't think you'll be able to narrow it down unless something lucky happens, such as they are visiting another relative, in which case you would have to investigate a few Thomases through the censuses and hope you came across something. This method has worked for me more than once.

Here's one in Spitalfields (3 mins from Shoreditch, according to GoogleMaps) in 1841:

Class: HO107; Piece 710; Book: 10; Civil Parish: Christ Church Spitalfields; County: Middlesex; Enumeration District: 18; Folio: 9; Page: 11; Line: 7

Thos Clay 35
Sarah Clay 25
George Clay 6
Robt Clay 5
Sarah Clay 2
John Clay 8 MO
Mary Almond 25
Mary Lench 15
Simon Levy 25
Ann Levy 25
Caroline Levy 9

Perhaps the Almond/Lench/Levy family living with them are related.

[Jellylegs]

Pallots marriage index says Thomas Clay married Hannah RENSHAW 13 October 1823 in Newark (Nottinghamshire).

... and on the 1851 census, Hannah's birthplace is Newark, Nottinghamshire.

There is a baptism/christening on FamilySearch of a Thos CLAY - 10.05.1803 Woolsthrope (near Grantham) - only the mother is named - Hannah CLAY. This could be Thomas the draper from the 1841 census.

[AnjaliUK]

PS. You may have already done this, but have you looked for any other baptisms for children of Thomas and Elizabeth Clay in London in the period 1800-1820ish? You may wish to rule out that Thomas and Catherine aren't the children of different couples, as the baptisms aren't at the same church and the parents' names are common.

The pattern of baptisms would help, eg. if there's Hackney bps from 1800-1810, then Islignton from 1811-1820 and no William and Elizabeth marriage in between, then it's probably the same couple. If the baptisms alternate between the two churches then it may be a different couple, and obviously a search for marriages could confirm.

Like I said, you may have already done this, I know you are just summarising your research in the post above. Also, I know the churches are close to each other, so you are hopefully correct.

[Colin Rowledge]

Hi AnjaliUK
I do thank you for your interest in my puzzle. Having had about 3 hours sleep in the lsat 36, my 'brain' [if it still exists] is somewhat scrambled.

The only baptisms I've found are those mentioned above.

I had found a marriage between a Thomas Clay and an Elizabeth Dixon, that took place on May 21, 1812 in St. James Clerkenwell. borough of Islington.

I had previously discounted it given my other findings, but, maybe, this is the area to concentrate on. What say you?

Colin

[AnjaliUK]

What say you?

Hi Colin,

If it was me I would definitely go with that marriage, it being really close to the 1816 bp and in the same place

The other Thomas and Elizabeth could easily be related, or even an earlier marriage for Thomas snr, the places being so close together. A 'wid' or 'bac' on the original would help with the latter idea. Or it could just be someone else I guess, but that's far less interesting to work with.

[Jellylegs]

Colin,

The baptism for Catharine is on Ancestry twice, once transcribed as St James and once as St Johns, but if you hover your mouse over the "record type" column, you get a preview. You will see that the records are different. The first one, if you look at the original actually says St James, not St Johns. I think the second record may include Catharines d.o.b. 12.11.1813.

The first record also gives Thomas' trade/profession as a Joiner.

[Jellylegs]

Familysearch has a baptism/christening of a Thos CLAY, 25.12.1782, East Allington, Lincoln. Parents are Wm CLAY and Catharine. This could be the Thomas who is a carpenter in the 1841 and 1851 census.