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  1. #11
    lucinda
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    Hello Stewart, sorry for the confusion. We have looked at the information on the birth of Caroline Sophia Gillam on the Jersey Heritage site and know that her father was Charles Gillam, a carter. We now, thanks to your help, know that when CSG was married, her father, Charles Gillam was, we assume, still alive but by then apparently a blacksmith.

    On this basis it was easy for us to assume that the Charles Gillam, who died in 1862, was from another branch of the family and it was then an easy step for us to think that the Charles who died perhaps also had a family which included a daughter Alice Gillam. So that it could have been this Alice who was in the Jersey Orphans home with her relative Caroline in the 1871 census. All conjecture without any proof at all.

    To move on, please can you expand on your comments about the "red light" district and the difference in ages. Like many others,we have always hoped to find someone of repute in our family but were probably not looking for a reputation of the type you appear to suggest as being a possibility. We are most intrigued and very much look forward to further details from you. Many thanks again. Lucinda

  2. #12
    Stewart Hill
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    Hi Lucinda

    I hope you weren't taking my comment re George St. as a detremental comment on your relatives. Far from it. George St. doen't exist any more and I had no knowledge of its whereabouts. I had to do some research for another lady on the same street and so had previously enquired at the Societe Library on what had happened to it. The lady I spoke to had actually done research on the very subject of the seedier side of life in St Helier and she knew exactly where it was. It is a lengthy road (by Jersey standards) and the residents in it were concerned as to what was going on and complained to the Parish who set about cleaning up the area and in the process re-named the road. It's not helped by the fact that in those days it backed onto the prison.

    As regards to the ages I referred to, the changes between the 1851 and the 1861 census are not straight 10 years. For instance Sarah goes from 7 to 12. Elizabeth goes from 5 to 17.

    If Charles was alive when Caroline married, why had she previously been in and orphans home?

    I will let you ponder on the way forward and if you have any specific lookups I'll gladly do them.

    Stewart

  3. #13
    lucinda
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    Stewart, please accept our apologies, we've realised that we have fallen into the trap of expecting the messenger to know the details of the messages.

    Of all the family tree branches we have explored, that of my Gt Grandmother has been the most frustrating and we really appreciate the help, and time, you have provided in getting details for us.

    On the question of Caroline Sophia Gillam can we remind you of some details you located for us back in March 2009 :-

    "The births are registered in St Helier.

    Alice Gillam, 22nd March 1858 to 28th May 1859, volume 15, page 41
    Caroline Sophia Gillam, 28th August 1854 to 19th October 1855, volume 12, page 82

    I looked in Admissions Register for the two girls at the Orphanage but there was no mention of them. I checked with the Archivist and she tells me that if they stayed only a couple of days they may not have been admitted. Also, the home was used as a training place for domestic staff, so her parents could well have paid for them to attend."

    Details of Alice Gillam's birth will certainly clear some of the fog for us. Also is it possible for you to find details of the marriage of Charles Gillam and Eliza Mugford, presumably around 1842/3, looking at the age of their first, surviving? daughter Elizabeth, in the 1861 census.

    Finally, Can you give us any more info. you have, on the reasons for the age discrepancies, of the Gillam children, between
    the 1851 and 1861 census.

    We look forward to hearing from you again soon. Regards Lucinda

  4. #14
    Stewart Hill
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    Hi Lucinda

    Alice's birth was at 8pm, 10th Sep 1858 at George Street. Charles Gillam was the father and Elizabeth Mary Mugford the mother.

    Looking for Charles marriage, I can only see one Charles getting married and he is down as marrying a Mary Mayford in St Helier, 4th May 1841. There were no other details. I strongly suspect that this is Elizabeth Mary Mugford and it has been mis-transposed.

    As regards the difference of ages between the census, I cannot give a definitive answer. I have seen differences before (especially with people wanting to be younger/older than what they really were) but cannot explain it in young children. The only thinng that comes to mind is perhaps they weren't sent to school at the correct age so they were covering up the situation.

    Perhaps others could give an opinion.

    Stewart

  5. #15
    SamClark
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stewart Hill View Post

    As regards the difference of ages between the census, I cannot give a definitive answer. I have seen differences before (especially with people wanting to be younger/older than what they really were) but cannot explain it in young children. The only thinng that comes to mind is perhaps they weren't sent to school at the correct age so they were covering up the situation.

    Perhaps others could give an opinion.

    Stewart
    Hello ... Not sure if I can be of any help here but I have been working with Census information for a long time, (mostly here in the U.S.) ... age discrepancies always drive me nuts but I have learned Census info (of all types) while helpful is sometimes not reliable ... I have actually had people tell me "that cannot be so and so, the age is wrong" even when they were at the same address in the prior and later Census, with the same parents. ... I started asking questions as to why or how these ages could be wrong ... these are some of the things I found out and some of the odd reasons ...

    1. The family was not at home and the census taker did not want to return, so they got the information from a neighbor or if it was a multi-dwelling house this seemed to be a practice used quite a bit.

    2. The Census taker wasn't actually using the census forms and would take "notes" and transcribe an area all at once.

    3. Stewart aptly gave one of the reasons "they weren't sent to school at the correct age so they were covering up the situation."

    4. If the mother was not at home ... (usually mothers pay more attention) the father may have gave them the wrong ages.

    5. They truly did not know ... ages were not important to some families, they let anyone be whatever age they wanted (with-in reason), especially if they were poor and uneducated.

    6. They needed the children to work or were trying to avoid sending their "babies" out into the world.

    There are a few more ... but I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this ... never put your full faith in census reports ...

    Have a great day
    Sam

  6. #16
    lucinda
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    Hello Sam, thanks for the information, people don't change do they? If only they had realised just how much of a problem their slapdash work would cause people, 150 or more years in the future, trying to trace their family history.

    It looks as though the only certain way of fixing reasonably accurate ages for parents & children is through their dates of birth, if these can be located. Thanks again for taking the trouble to give us the benefit of your experience. Best wishes Lucinda

  7. #17
    lucinda
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    Hello Stewart, thank you so much for the info on Alice Gillam and the details about the marriage of Charles Gillam and Elizabeth Mary Mugford in 1841.

    A few days ago, we came across a Jersey website, similar to the Heritage one, which listed families by surname. This had an entry for Eliza Sarah Gillam, born 7/9/1843 to parents Charles Gillam and Mary Mugford with Eliza Mugford as 2nd Godparent, which matches quite neatly with the marriage you found.

    We now, of course, have another puzzle, was Elizabeth Mary Mugford the same person as our Eliza Mugford, both lived on George Street and both were married to a George Gillam or, were they perhaps sisters ?

    If you could possibly check on the birth details for some of the Gillam family children you found for us in the 1861 census, this will perhaps clarify if Eliza and Elizabeth are the same person or not. Assuming of course that you are not completely bored with the whole Gillam saga. Regards and thanks again, Lucinda

  8. #18
    Stewart Hill
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    Hi Lucinda

    It's no problem re looking up the births. I am as interested as you are! I will look for:

    Elizabeth Gilham, abt 1844, a servant, born St. Helier.
    Sarah Gilham, abt 1849, born St. Helier.
    Emma Gilham, abt 1851, born St. Helier.
    Caroline Gilham, abt 1853, born St. Helier.
    Ellen Gilham, abt 1857, born St. Helier.


    What was the web-site you looked up the mariage?

    Stewart

  9. #19
    lucinda
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    Hello Stewart, Checked with my husband about the website, It was obviously an odd entry from the Jersey Heritage site but listed people in groups by surname not as individuals. He saved the entry with Gillams on it but the site then froze & crashed and we haven't been able to get back to it either directly or through the Heritage website but will keep trying.

    Look forward to hearing from you about the birth dates, if you can find them. Lucinda

  10. #20
    Stewart Hill
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    Hi Lucinda

    Just to up date you with what I'm doing.

    I've decided to abandon (for the time being) the 1861 census as there are too many inconsistencies.

    I have today extracted all the Gillam births and deaths between 1841 and 1861. There are 10 births and 7 deaths. I then intend to look them up looking for a father of Charles and a mother of Mary Mayford/Mugford. I'll see where that takes us. I've already seen an interesting one - James Mugford Gillam!!

    Leave it with me for a few days as it will take me a while.

    Stewart

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