Thornton DNA Project: UK-descendants wanted

[cgthornton1]

In the mid-to-late 1600s several Thornton immigrants landed in colonial Virginia. Records indicate that some of their names were William, Henry, Thomas, and Luke. These were the sons of Roger, Henry, Thomas and others and came from places like Lancashire, Yorkshire, Cheshire and Middlesex. They may or may not have known each other, but they were all descended from the same line. Their descendants in the US are numerous and widespread.

We currently have a DNA project based on Y-chromosome STR-typing (just do a web search for “Thornton Surname Project” and you’ll find us, or send me a private message and I will forward the link). When you find us the “yellow” group (aka “Virginia A”) is our group. Our Haplogroup is I1d1.

We have a DNA-modeling document to try to piece this puzzle together (which we are happy to share), but we are looking for UK-based descendants of these Thornton lines to establish the origin of our lineage. If you are a male with the Thornton surname (or know of one), and you think you might be a descendant of Roger, Henry, Thomas, etc. and you are interested in participating in our DNA project, please contact me. If you want a copy of the DNA-modeling document and our results to date, please contact me directly.
Thank you,
Charles G. Thornton

[josie7644]

Hi,

I'm a female descendant of a female Thornton (Ann) (born about 1843) in Rathvilly, Carlow. I would be really pleased to take part in your project. Josie

[cgthornton1]

Send me a private message and I will forward the information!
-Chuck

[MythicalMarian]

Hi,

I'm a female descendant of a female Thornton (Ann) (born about 1843) in Rathvilly, Carlow. I would be really pleased to take part in your project. Josie

If the test is based on Y-chromosome testing, surely it is of no use for female descendants of females?

[cgthornton1]

Correct! However, I assume that you have a male Thornton in your life that could potentially donate a Y-chromosome to the study!

[MythicalMarian]

Correct! However, I assume that you have a male Thornton in your life that could potentially donate a Y-chromosome to the study!

Ah, not me, CG - I was just addressing the comment to Josie. I haven't a Thornton to call my own

Good luck with your project, all the same - let us know how you get on.

[cgthornton1]

Okay, I guess I’ll put this out there cuz y’all seem to be real good at figuring things out…
We think my gggGrandfather was George Thornton: George was born c1807 in Wolverton, Warwickshire, England. He married Mary Broadhurst on Sept 24, 1832 outside Coventry, England.
They had a bunch of children, one of whom was Timothy. My ggGrandfather was Timothy J. Thornton: Timothy was born in 1838 in Walsgrave on Sowe, Warwickshire, England. He immigrated to Canada around 1860 with the whole military-thing where he married Ellen Hartery in 1865 in St. John’s Newfoundland… George & Mary had a number of other children (all born in Walsgrave on Sowe): Elizabeth [b. c1833], John [b. c1834], George [b. c1840], Mary [b. c1843], James [b. c1845], Sarah [b. c1848], and William [b. c1851].
Anyway, my line ends up in Boston, Mass. around 1885….which is why I’m so interested in this DNA project because I don’t know how my people from England are related to these immigrants from Virginia!!! My back ground is molecular biology, so the DNA is a comfort…not so good with the documents, so any help deconstructing my George would be GREATLY appreciated…cgt

[Geoffers]

We think my gggGrandfather was George Thornton: George was born c1807 in Wolverton, Warwickshire, England. He married Mary Broadhurst on Sept 24, 1832 outside Coventry, England.
They had a bunch of children, one of whom was Timothy. My ggGrandfather was Timothy J. Thornton: Timothy was born in 1838 in Walsgrave on Sowe

It should be a reasonably simple matter to confirm your suspicions as to the parentage of Timothy THORNTON. Have you tried searching for a birth being registered using the General Register Office (GRO) index? There looks to be a likely match for him and some of the named siblings. if you are not sure how to search for and obtain copies of certificates, please ask and we'll happily lead you through it.

A birth certificate for Timothy would include his mum's name and maiden name - father's name and occuaption. You may also be able to identify the family using census returns, from 1851 onwards (HO107/2066 f586 p1 looks a fair bet) these include places of birth and so that may then point you towards the correct parish register to locate his baptism - and possibly other relatives.

If you've already followed this, my apologies for trying to teach you to suck eggs.

He immigrated to Canada around 1860 with the whole military-thing

Do you mean that your chap was in the armed forces (RN, RM, Army) in England - or that he joined up after emigrating?

Anyway, my line ends up in Boston, Mass. around 1885….which is why I’m so interested in this DNA project because I don’t know how my people from England are related to these immigrants from Virginia!!!

A common surname does not mean a common ancestor. However, if you have shown some DNA conenction - the only way of working things out is through documents.

not so good with the documents

Documents is what most of us do quite a lot, so if we can point you in the right direction, we're happy to do so. A DNA test may show a biological connection, but doesn't tell you the story of the lives.

One other passing shot (again apologies if you've tried it), use a search engine to look for 'Warwickshire Surnames List' - you'll get at least one hit, look to see if anyone else is registered as researching the same name.

Good luck

[cgthornton1]

Geoffers,
Thank you for your comprehensive reply! I will try to answers your questions…here is what I know I know:

(1) My great-grandfather was George T. THORNTON [b. Feb, 1866/Kingston, Ontario]. We have his birth certificate; his father is stated as Timothy THORNTON & Ellen Hartery. Timothy married Ellen in 1865 in St. John's, Newfoundland (I can't seem to find the marriage info but I'm sure a cousin has it somewhere). Family lore has it that Timothy was born in “Coventry, England.”

(2) We have the obit for Timothy (December 10, 1907) which establishes his connection to his brother John, his connection to our George T. of Boston, and his country of origin as England. It states that he was 60 years old, which puts his year of birth c1837. The obit of brother John cross references very nicely (they died within months of each other in Halifax, NS).

(3) I have what I believe to be an image of the original birth registration for Timothy. It shows that a Timothy THORNTON was born in Foleshill (volume 16, page 377)…my notes show him being born January 18, 1838, but that isn’t shown on the document I have.

(4) We have the images of the original 1851 census (HOIO7/2066 f586 p1) and the 1861 census (RG9/2197 fI p14) showing the Civil Parish (Sowe) & County (Warwickshire) of the census. It shows that this George was born in Wolverton, Northamptonshire in c1807, and that he was married to Mary. The 1851 census shows a Timothy of age 13, which puts his birth in 1838. The 1861 census doesn’t show a Timothy, but he would have been 23 by this time. The names of the children shown in the census’ are consistent with point #6 below.

(5) The Walsgrave on Sowe St Mary Marriages register shows that George THORNTON married Mary Broadhurst on September 24, 1832. Elizabeth Broadhurst and John Emery were witnesses. We do NOT have a copy of the original marriage certificate/register, just an internet reference:
hunimex.net/warwick/bmd/Walsgrave_Marriages_1813-1837.html

(6) The Walsgrave on Sowe baptisms show the following children associated with George & Mary THORNTON: Elizabeth [b. c1833], John [b. c1834], Timothy [b. c1838], George [b. c1840], Mary [b. c1843], James [b. c1845], Sarah [b. c1848], and William [b. c1851]; these are consistent with the census records described above (again, online references from the Warwick records).

(6) The Walsgrave-on-Sowe, St Mary Burials 1813-1876 show that George THORNTON was buried on March 30, 1865 in Sowe…his age is listed as 58 …which suggests he was b. 1807. Again, we do NOT have a copy of the original, just an internet reference:
hunimex.net/warwick/bmd/Walsgrave_on_sowe_burials%201813-1876.html

(7) And finally something I can comment on…I took the Y-chromosome test to see if it could give us any hints regarding our THORNTON ancestry. I match at 65/67 markers with a group of THORNTONS that trace their heritage back to a small band of THORNTONS that colonized Virginia c1650 (we now have 29 participants in our project). The statistics suggest that there is a probability of 99% that I have a common ancestor with this group within the last 14 generations! I simply have NO idea how I am connected to these people...more on that later!

Now, here’s what we don’t know:

(1) We don’t have a document that shows the name of our Timothy’s father. I’m afraid that if I simply order a birth certificate from GRO for Timothy THORNTON that it will show exactly what I expect…that there was a Timothy born in Sowe in 1838 whose father’s name was George and mother’s name was Mary! While this would be nice to have, I don’t know if this is my Timothy! I do have the LDS reference info for the birth of this Timothy.

(2) We don’t have any military records for any Timothy to show birth date/place, parentage, and/or his service or immigration to Canada. This is the question I think I need the most help on.

(3) As for George’s parents: I have a George THORNTON born 14 Dec 1810 to John THORNTON and Ann Beecroft in Yarmouth, Norfolk, England. I have the baptism of this John as Dec 25, 1793 at St Bartholomew, Colne, Lancashire, England. This John THORNTON was the son of James Thornton & Priscilla and he was born Nov 16, 1793 in Colne (Register: Baptisms 1790 - 1812, Page 45, Entry 15 [Source: LDS Film 1471024]). I have NO proof that this George is the same George discussed above. Interestingly, one of the Y-chromosome participants with whom I share 65/67 markers has traced his lineage back to Roger THORNTON of Rivington in Lancashire.

That about sums up where I’m at…I need documentation to connect my Timothy to this George, and this George to his father!
Best,
Chuck
whew...I think I need a pint or three...

[Geoffers]

I'll break up my reply into two parts to make it easier to follow...........

Geoffers,
(3) I have what I believe to be an image of the original birth registration for Timothy. It shows that a Timothy THORNTON was born in Foleshill (volume 16, page 377)…my notes show him being born January 18, 1838, but that isn’t shown on the document I have.

Okedoke - what I think you have an image of is the entry in the General Register Office (GRO) index of births, the entry probably records:

March 1839 THORNTON, Timothy - Foleshill - Vol 16 Page 377

You can use this reference to obtain a copy of the certificate via the GRO

Since 1837 there has been a system of civil registration in England and Wales. Births, Marriages and Deaths were collated by a registrar for a district. He sent copies to the General Register Office who in turn created an index every three months. So, events recorded as March include those in January, February and March - except that up to 6 weeks was premitted for a registration; so the March Quarter returns can include events from late November and December the preceding year. I hope that makes as much sense as I intend it, if not please ask and I'll try to clarify.

Anyway, using the GRO index, you can apply for copies of the certificates held by the GRO. A birth certificate will incldue date and place of birth, name, gender, dad's name and occuaption, surname, mum's name and maiden name, when registered and the name of the informant. So, as prevously mentioned, a birth certificate for Timothy THORNTON will hopefully confirm that you have identified the correct marriage of his parents.

(4) We have the images of the original 1851 census (HOIO7/2066 f586 p1) and the 1861 census (RG9/2197 fI p14) showing the Civil Parish (Sowe) & County (Warwickshire) of the census. It shows that this George was born in Wolverton, Northamptonshire in c1807,

This is a slight spanner in the works. Wolverton in Warwickshire is well into the county and some distance from Northants - I don't believe it was then an outlier (isolated parish of one county set in the middle of another county) of Northants. There is another Wolverton, in Buckinghamshire (It now forms part of Milton Keynes) which is quite close to the Northants border. So, which Wolverton was intended?

(5) The Walsgrave on Sowe St Mary Marriages register shows that George THORNTON married Mary Broadhurst on September 24, 1832. Elizabeth Broadhurst and John Emery were witnesses. We do NOT have a copy of the original marriage certificate/register

It is always advisable to check original sources, you may be able to hire a copy of the register on film at a mormon church (LDS) record centre.

(6) The Walsgrave-on-Sowe, St Mary Burials 1813-1876 show that George THORNTON was buried on March 30, 1865 in Sowe

It may be worth a quick glance at the Probate Calendar to see if he left a will in which he mentions his son in Canada/America? - or if Letters of Administration (abbreviated to Admon) were granted. If he left a will (you'll see the word probate in the calendar), then a copy can be obtained via the probate service (you'll also need 'forms and leaflets' on the right of the screen in this link).

(7) And finally something I can comment on…I took the Y-chromosome test to see if it could give us any hints regarding our THORNTON ancestry. I match at 65/67 markers with a group of THORNTONS that trace their heritage back to a small band of THORNTONS that colonized Virginia c1650

This is where I may cause offence, and none is intended. PLEASE make sure that their research is sound, verifiable, it can be repeated. There is so much squit posted on the internet which many people have accepted as fact; and this is causing a lot of problems. Also, I do hope that those who have traced this ancestry are not relying on family history books published in the late 19th and early 20th century - many family histories were published then which are little more than works of fiction. As I mentioned, no offence is intended in this, but it is as well to check that what people have as fact is just that. I hate to see folks wasting their money and more importantly time in following the wrong line.