Herbert CLARKE, gentleman, died Uxbridge 1808

[Jane Elderfield]

The plot thickens. A search on London Lives for Morris' presumed brother Richard MONK reveals that he was, in 1779, a property-owner in Clare Court, Drury Lane. He insured his place for a thousand pounds. Most interesting, however, is his occupation: BUTTON SELLER (like my Herbert CLARKE). Richard MONK appears also in Clare Court in 1780 as a voter.

So far, I haven't found either CLARKE or MONK as buttonmakers on various button websites. Perhaps they were the silent partners, "& Company" with some other buttonmaker? The famous FIRMIN button company was located quite nearby.....

--Jane E

In researching FIRMINs the buttonmakers, I found that from about 1815, "FIRMIN & LANGDALE" had their addresses as 153 Strand and 10 Clare Court, Drury Lane. I wonder if they had bought out the MONK property? Or if LANGDALE was a relative of Richard MONK and had inherited or bought his company? There is a burial of Richard MONK in St. Clement Danes 25 Sep 1791.

In researching the Firmin buttonmaking company, I found that in 1838 the name was "FIRMIN & KING", interesting in light of Herbert's daughter Sarah marrying a KING (although of course KING is a pretty common name.) Last night I discovered in an old Google book that the partners' names were Robert Selby FIRMIN and William KING, of Conduit Street, and they posted for bankruptcy in the 1830s (not sure of exact year).

Keeping on keeping on--
Jane E

Janet--thanks for FIRMIN / FIRMAN info, and speculation too.

[janbooth]

Jane:

There is an extract from The Standard dated 13 July 1838 which states that "Robert FIRMIN son of the late Philip ..... of 153 Strand and for 14 years the manufacturing ..... in the firm of Firmin & Sons, Button Manufacturers ... Sword Cutlers of the same place, returns his sincere ..... for the patronage he has received since his commenc........ above trade at No 13 Conduit Street, Bond Street ....... junction with William KING (who was also for nine........ attached to the same house) and begs to assure the ...... clergy, gentry, his friends and the public at large, ......... orders confided to the care of himself and partner............ meet with their most diligent attention and prosecution."

Unfortunately, the whole article is not showing and the dots indicate missing words.

Another extract from The Gazette dated Friday 25 January 1839:

Declarations of Insolvency

January 23 Robert Selby FIRMIN & William KING of Conduit Street, Hanover Square, Middlesex, Button Manufacturers

Then there is this notice in The Morning Post dated Monday 29 January 1839:

"Messrs FIRMIN & Sons of 153 Strand, Button Manufacturers give notice that they have NO CONNECTION with Messrs Robert Selby FIRMIN & William KING of No 13 Conduit Street, Button Manufacturers, who are in the list of Insolvents of the 25th instant and that Mr Robert Selby Firmin has had no interest in the business carried on at 153 Strand since the dissolution of partnership on the 19th day of August 1836 which was regularly Gazetted at the time"

Janet

[Jane Elderfield]

Janet--

Thank you very much for the entries you found. The last one is very clear, about the (non) relationship between the "Messrs FIRMIN" and the bankrupt Robert Firmin and his partner William King.

--Jane E

[Jane Elderfield]

Searching on LondonLives just for "button" brought up dozens of button makers and button sellers in the parish of St. Clement Danes and surrounding Parishes. Many were property owners, voters, masters of apprentices, officers in the Vestry of their parish, and/or they had a will proved in the Prerogative Court of Canterbury.

One intriguing item was a Herbert WILLIAMSON, button seller, of St. Clement Danes, whose will was probated in 1709. Bearing in mind that Herbert was an uncommon name in those days (usually derived from a surname in the ancestry, and passed down through the generations), and the other details that matched, I thought he could perhaps be a grandfather or great-grandfather of my Herbert CLARKE....

However, after six evenings of searching on various sites, I have not found anything to link him to Herbert CLARKE.

Sooner or later, the One Important Clue will show up. I just wish it would be sooner rather than later!

Thanks to all who have helped in this brick wall.
--Jane E

[Jane Elderfield]

Well, here I am, still searching for the elusive Herbert CLARKE's ancestry. I've had an interesting will from the National Archives probate collection, and discovered how Herbert got his start in the button business. As well, the site I subscribe to, F...M.P..., has posted up the Westminster Rate Books, and I have found out a lot more about Herbert's adult life, and the people whose lives touched his.

In the 1760's Herbert CLARKE was the "servant" (employee) of a button-maker named Francis GODBY, in Naked Boy Court, Westminster. (The little court shows on the 1746 map on the free site Locating London's Past. It runs south off The Strand just east of Somerset House. It's said to be named after a pub, The Naked Boy. The pub sign apparently depicted a young man so confused by rapid changes of fashion that he couldn't decide what to wear to be in style!)

GODBY had been there since at least 1754, having replaced a button-gilder named Felton NEVILL. When GODBY died in 1770, he left all his stock-in-trade, and all his tools and equipment to Herbert. Herbert quite promptly moved into his ex-employer's premises in Naked Boy Court, and stayed there about 5 years. GODBY's wife Elizabeth named Herbert executor in her will, and left jewellery to him and his wife, and 40 pounds to Herbert. Incidentally, both Francis and Elizabeth GODBY are buried in Hillingdon, (near Uxbridge, where Herbert had a house). Herbert, his wife Elizabeth nee PUTNAM, and some children are also buried in Hillingdon churchyard.

Around 1775, Herbert took over the premises of another button-maker, the late James BEVER, in Drury Lane. Herbert's name is found in the Drury Lane property (number 55) until around 1784. Presumably, he retired after that to Uxbridge/Hillingdon. He voted from Hillingdon in 1802. Number 55 Drury Lane was taken over by yet another button-maker, Thomas BEDELL.

Tracing the eighteenth-century button-makers of Westminster through the Rate Books, the Poll Books (online free at London Lives), and other sources, I found their lives highly intertwined. They moved into one another's property; they witnessed each other's weddings; they (possibly) married into other button-makers' families.

And at the end of it all, I still don't know anything further about Herbert before his 1758 marriage. Who were his parents? Where and when was he born? Who (if anyone) did he apprentice with?

Still searching--

Jane Elderfield

[christanel]

Jane you are to be congratulated on your persistence! You are wearing it down little by little and so much detail. Why couldn't my lot have lived in London and been a bit more imaginative in their occupations.

I have to thank you too for reminding me about the London Lives website. I have so many sites bookmarked I really need to set aside a couple of hours a month to peruse them all. Yeah right.

I look forward to the next instalment.
Christina

[Jane Elderfield]

Off on another tangent of the Herbert CLARKE search.

It turns out that there was a Samuel CLARKE, esq., aged about 30, who married in 1728 (new style) Ann GUEST, the 18-year-old daughter of Richard GUEST, a tailor. Although both were of the parish of St. Clement Danes, Westminster, they were married by Licence at St. Paul's Cathedral (recently rebuilt by Christopher Wren. Unfortunately, there are no signatures, and no witnesses.

There is some circumstantial evidence that suggests that this couple might be the parents of my Herbert CLARKE, Westminster button-maker.

(1) Samuel Clarke lived in Cooks Court, St. Clement Danes, Westminster, from at least 1726 to 1753. (St. Clement Danes was my Herbert's parish from 1758 to 1774.)

(2) Samuel was an "Esquire" by virtue of his appointment by the King as a Justice of the Peace. He judged Petty Sessions, conducted settlement examinations, confirmed collections of the Poor Rates, etc. Samuel was on the Vestry of St. Clement Danes, and served loyally from at least 1732 to around 1754. I have numerous examples of his signature. As this job had no salary attached, he had to be independently wealthy. (Judging by my Herbert's assets of 10,000 pounds at his death as a "gentleman", Herbert had inherited money.)

(3) The marriage of Samuel CLARKE to Sarah GUEST took place in 1728 (new style). The wedding date is the right time period for the birth of Herbert (estimated 1731). Sarah's father, tailor Richard GUEST, also served on the Vestry of St. Clement Danes for many years.

(4) A Sally-Maria CLARKE, dau of Samuel & Sarah, was chr. St. Clement Danes in 1729. My Herbert Clarke's 1758 marriage witness was "Sarah Clarke". Could she be either mother Sarah CLARKE (nee GUEST) or sister Sally-Maria CLARKE (being formal about her name)?

(5) The name Sarah occurs in Herbert's children (Sarah CLARKE mar. Thomas KING), and other descendants. The name Samuel occurs in Herbert's grandchildren, eg. Samuel KING. (I do realize they are both common forenames.)

(6) In 1726, one of Samuel Clarke's close neighbours in Cooks Court was Robert HARPER. (My Herbert's sister Elizabeth married a man named HARPER.)

(7) In the same year, another close neighbour was Joseph MASON. (A John MASON and his wife Mary, nee PRYOR, were apparently close family friends of my Herbert's children. John & Mary Mason are both buried in Herbert's daughter Sarah KING's family vault in Bunhill Fields Cemetery, London. Herbert Clarke’s daughter Mary BENSLEY was present at the 1790 birth of a daughter Mary to John & Mary Mason; and John MASON witnessed the 1807 codicil to Herbert's will. Again, though, HARPER and MASON are both fairly common surnames.)

(8) Around 1753, Samuel CLARKE's house in Cooks Court was taken over by Miss Rebecca CLARKE. A house very nearby was then occupied by an Elizabeth CLARKE. (Could these be sisters of Herbert? --Rebecca presumed dead by the time of Herbert's will of 1797, and Elizabeth married to Mr. HARPER.)

Sources: mostly London Lives and Westminster Rate Books.

By the way, there's a tree on Anc...uk that shows Samuel CLARKE & Sarah GUEST as Herbert Clarke's parents. I know about it-- it belongs to one of my fellow researchers / distant cousins.

One of my fellow researchers has checked out all 15 Samuel CLARKE National Archives PCC wills from London/Middlesex 1753-1800, with no success.

It could all be another wild goose chase, but I'm still hoping, and still searching.

--Jane

[janbooth]

Good luck, Jane, and let's hope you find that elusive piece of information that ties it all together for you. Thanks for the update too.

Janet

[Jane Elderfield]

Now it's April 2015, and I'm still hoping to find a solid connection between my elusive Herbert CLARKE, button man, and Samuel CLARKE, esq., both of St. Clement Danes in the 1700s....

Jane