GRANT - please help I'm in a muddle!!!

[Luzzu]

Hello.



This is not so much a brickwall but a pile of rubble. I am going around in circles and am really hoping a fresh pair of eyes will see something obvious.

Michael Grant was born c1854 in Manchester. He died, aged 50 years, on 26 Jun 1905 and is buried in Moston Cemetery, Manchester. From the census returns I have found that he had two brothers, John born c1852 and Thomas born c1865 and his parents were Patrick born c1815 and Catherine born c1825. John and Thomas were born in Manchester and Patrick and Catherine were born in Ireland.

I have found a marriage for a Patrick Grant/Catherine McCarthy 30 June 1856 Manchester Cathedral but having obtained details have been able to disregard this as it applies to another family living in Manchester at that time.

I have obtained marriage certificate for both John and Michael who were both married in 1883. John to Mary Cannon and Michael to Margaret Mullin. The certificates are connected as John Grant and Mary Cannon were witnesses at Michael's wedding.

I obtained a birth certificate for Michael Grant 19 Nov 1854 but it shows his parents as Patrick Grant and Mary Ryan. I have obtained a marriage certificate for Patrick Grant and Mary Ryan 11 Feb 1854 which indicates that Patrick was a widower aged 28 when he married. This would also indicate that he was born c1826 so does not tie in with his age on the census returns which indicate he was born c 1815. I have been unable to find the correct birth certificate for John although the information does point to him being born in 1852. Finding John's birth does seem to be one of the keys to solving this as it seems John and Michael had different mothers. I am unable to find a birth for the 3rd son Thomas and in fact he just seems to disappear although there is a reference to a Thomas Grant born c1865 in Manchester in a Hampshire workhouse.

I am not 100% convinced I have the right birth certificate for Michael but there don't seem to be any alternatives.

Patrick Grant died between 1861 and 1871 and I found a death registered in 1865. Convinced this was "mine", I ordered the certificate but the Patrick Grant who died was aged 60 and therefore born 1805, his occupation was commercial traveller (my Patrick was a labourer), the informant was Mary Grant (should have been Catherine) and the address wasn't consistent with the census returns (totally different area of Manchester).

I cannot see any alternative "deaths" for Patrick !!!

Going back to the census returns. In 1861 I have Patrick, Catherine, John and Michael. In 1871 I have Catherine (widowed) with John, Michael and Thomas. In 1881 I have Micheal and his "wife" Margaret lodging with the Maitland family and pretending to be married. They didn't marry until 1883 but started having children in 1877 and in fact had 3 possibly 4 before they got married. In 1891 and 1901, I can see Michael, Margaret and family and John, Mary and family but no sign of Catherine and Thomas.

The strange thing is there is no sign of Catherine, John and Thomas on the 1881 census although I can see a John Grant with his mother Catherine Sheridan. There is a marriage for a Catherine Grant/Andrew Sheridan in 1863 and a death for Andrew Sheridan in 1867 but on the 1871 census Catherine was a Grant widow and not a Sheridan widow. In 1901 there is a Catherine Sheridan living with her married daughter Mary Ann Broughton nee Sheridan.

Finally, I have checked the 1851 Unfilmed Census of Manchester and there is no record so either the family are on the section that has still to be recovered or else they were still en route from Ireland. Also I have absolutely no idea which part of Ireland they were from.




Sorry this thread is so long and I hope you aren't all asleep .

Any suggestions, help, ideas, observations will be more than welcome.

Luzzu

[sue2white]

1851 census
Name: Patrick Grant
Age: 25
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1826
Relation: Son
Father's Name: William
Mother's Name: Bridget
Gender: Male
Where born: Ireland

Civil parish: Manchester
Town: Manchester
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Household Members: Name Age
William Grant 70 Chelsea Pensioner
Bridget Grant 59
Patrick Grant 25 Tailor
Ellen Grant 24
Mary M Henry 31
Edward Henry 26
William Brown 9
Bridget Brown 1
All born Ireland

Class: HO107; Piece: 2225; Folio: 615; Page: 58;

Could this be Patrick?

Sue

[sue2white]

I have found a marriage for a Patrick Grant/Catherine McCarthy 30 June 1856 Manchester Cathedral but having obtained details have been able to disregard this as it applies to another family living in Manchester at that time

.


What made you disregard this?


Marriages Mar 1854

Crotty Michael Salford 8d 35
Grant Patrick Salford 8d 35
Hyland Julia Salford 8d 35
Ryan Mary Salford 8d 35

Deaths Dec 1854
Grant Mary Manchester 8d 117


Marriages Jun 1856
GRANT Patrick Manchester 8d 380
MCCARTHY Catharine Manchester 8d 380
Pinnington Mary Manchester 8d 380
SHAW Joseph Manchester 8d 380

Is this not a possibility?

Sue

[sue2white]

Births Dec 1854
Grant Michael Salford 8d 17


Deaths Dec 1854
Grant Mary Manchester 8d 117


Did Mary die in Childbirth?
Sue

[sue2white]

I

have found a marriage for a Patrick Grant/Catherine McCarthy 30 June 1856 Manchester Cathedral but having obtained details have been able to disregard this as it applies to another family living in Manchester at that time

Yes I have found this family too. This Patrick was younger.
I still think Mary died in childbirth and Patrick hooked up with a Catherine

I have been unable to find the correct birth certificate for John although the information does point to him being born in 1852.

If he was born before Patrick & Mary married, could this be John?

Births Mar 1852
RYAN John Manchester 8d 297

You've got me going now!
Sue

[sue2white]

Or one of these?

Births Dec 1852
RYAN John Manchester 8d 127
RYAN John Manchester 8d 111

There is a marriage for a Catherine Grant/Andrew Sheridan in 1863

And would Thomas be Sheridan?

Births Sep 1864
Sheriden Thomas Oldham 8d 455

Got to do the dinner now.
Sue

[Luzzu]

Hi Sue,



Good to "meet" you and thank you for helping.

Patrick and Ellen Grant on the 1851 census unfortunately aren't mine. They were living in Oldham in 1861 and my Patrick was with Catherine in Chorlton-upon-Medlock.

I disregarded the Patrick Grant/Catherine McCarthy marriage in 1856 because when I got the details the ages and occupations were all wrong. They were too young and Patrick was a shoemaker. My Patrick was a labourer. It turned out there was a young family living in Water Street in the 1861 census that matched this marriage.

I have already checked the John Ryan birth and that doesn't fit either.

When I received Michael's birth certificate, I automatically thought that Mary Ryan had died in childbirth or soon after. His d-o-b is 19 Nov 1854 the certificate says his birth was registered by Mary on 30 Dec 1854. The Mary Ryan death is 4th quarter 1854 so if she registered the birth on 30 Dec, she had to die on 30 or 31. Would someone that ill go out and register a birth or would someone realise that the birth hadn't been registered and go out and pretend to be her - she signed with a mark?

If I have the right certificate for Michael and the Patrick Grant/Mary Ryan certificate is correct, I think that Patrick was married to John's mother in Ireland, she died and he married Mary Ryan and then she died and then he got with Catherine and Thomas is Catherine's son but how can I prove this?

Thomas could be a Sheridan but Oldham is too far away. We need to be in Manchester, Chorlton, Salford, Hulme, Moss Side areas. Oldham is a long way north.

The reason I am worried about the marriage is that Patrick's age is 28 in 1854 which would make his d-o-b around 1826 when the census says he was born around 1815 - unless he lied because Mary was only 19 !!! He didn't seem to have any trouble attracting women and he didn't seem to leave much of gap after one died before he got another. May be Patrick and Catherine didn't marry and just lived together but she took the Grant surname for decency.

If Catherine did marry Andrew Sheridan and then he died, why wasn't she called Catherine Sheridan widow on the 1871 census instead of Catherine Grant widow and when she married why would she use Grant and not her maiden name. Just had a thought from no where - could Catherine be Patrick's sister ??? and ... she married Andrew Sheridan in 1863 and then was widowed in 1867 and reverted to using her maiden name on 1871 census but then why go back to Sheridan in 1881 ??

On the Patrick Grant/Mary Ryan marriage certificate the fathers are John Grant and Michael Ryan. Now I have been looking at the Irish naming pattern and the first son is named after the father's father, the second son is named after the mothers father and the third son is named after the father.

Now there is a birth for a Patrick Grant in 1857 2nd quarter Chorlton 8c 543 and a death in 2nd quarter Chorlton 8c 291. And, there is a death for a Mary Grant in 1860 2nd quarter Chorlton 8c 352. I have taken a shot in the dark with this and gambled £7 on the Patrick Grant birth to see if he belongs but it won't arrive until the end of the week.

It seems like everytime I see a way to move a step forward, I move 5 steps back.



Luzzu

[sue2white]

I have obtained a marriage certificate for Patrick Grant and Mary Ryan 11 Feb 1854 which indicates that Patrick was a widower aged 28 when he married. This would also indicate that he was born c1826 so does not tie in with his age on the census returns which indicate he was born c 1815.

In my experience, when a man remarries, he often states he is younger than he actually is. Especially if he is marrying a younger woman. I wonder why????

Patrick Grant died between 1861 and 1871 and I found a death registered in 1865. Convinced this was "mine", I ordered the certificate but the Patrick Grant who died was aged 60 and therefore born 1805, his occupation was commercial traveller (my Patrick was a labourer), the informant was Mary Grant (should have been Catherine) and the address wasn't consistent with the census returns (totally different area of Manchester).

I agree, I don't think this is your Patrick, especially as Catherine may have 're-married' in 1863. Looks as your Patrick died elsewhere.

The strange thing is there is no sign of Catherine, John and Thomas on the 1881 census although I can see a John Grant with his mother Catherine Sheridan.

Why have you disregarded this? Seems possible.

Sue

[sue2white]

Patrick and Ellen Grant on the 1851 census unfortunately aren't mine

Ellen was his sister. They were with parents. If Patrick didn;'t marry Mar until 1854, this could be him.

"I have already checked the John Ryan birth and that doesn't fit either."

Have you checked all of them? There are quite a few.

Sue

[Luzzu]

Hi Sue,

A descendent of John Grant's in reference checking the most likely of the John Ryan births working on date and area and has been working through the John Grants on the same basis but no luck so far.

Missed the fact Ellen was Patrick's sister on the 1851 census - thanks for that - sometimes I can't see the wood for the trees! Its true it could be him but if that was my Patrick it would mean his father was William and on the marriage certificate his father is John so that would mean the marriage was wrong wouldn't it?

John Grant with Catherine Sheridan in 1881 - I haven't dismissed this and I am wondering if Catherine was Patrick's sister and not his wife and that is why there is no marriage and John Grant would be with her as her nephew and her daughter would be Mary Ann Sheridan which would make sense and Thomas could be her son which she had outside marriage which is why he is Grant. And if his wife had died, a sister would help him with the children. It does seem to make sense but am I making things fit without proof.

I absolutely agree with you about men lying about their age. Even on Michael's certificate in 1883 he put his age as 26 but he was really 29 going on 30.

Thank you so much. It really does help to talk everything through.



Luzzu