George Copeland

[jeeb]

Hi everyone

George is down on the 1911 Census as being born in East Ham, Essex but the 1891 census down as West Ham, Essex. He lived with my g-grandparents there (Burchnell). They lived at 4 Cooks Road, Stratford with my maternal grandmother (Cunningham nee Burchnell) for over 50 years until they were bombed out in the second world world.

As I understand it, if you are a merchant seaman you sign on for each voyage so I didn't find it surprisinging that he was down as a saw mill labourer in 1891. The 1911 census says he is now a pensioner formerly merchant seaman.

I will endeavour to attach the 1911 and 1891 census records. Sorry just gone further down the page and it says 'I cannot post attachments'.

What shall I do next?

Lesleyl

Hi Lesley,
Sorry I am a little confused by your first statement. You say George lived with your Great Grandparents. You say he died in 1919. Then you say they lived together for over 50 years until they were bombed out.
Could you explain who lived with who for 50 years and how this connects to George Copeland?

It would be my guess at present that if this George Copeland lived/lodged with the family for many years and left property to your aunt then he will probably be related somehow.


Is there a Will?

Jeremy

[lesleyl]

Thanks to everyone for their suggestions. I will wait until I get the certificates which will hopefully give me a clue about parents and will confirm on the death certificate if my family members where the informants.

To set out the story - my maternal g-grandparents (Wiliam and Sarah Burchnell with daughter Lillian Allen) came to London from Lincolnshire c1870's, having appeared on the 1871 census in Lincolnshire. They appear in the 1881 census in Stratford, East London without their daughter, who drowned in the River Lea in 1880. In the 1891 census they are listed with George and my grandmother, Florence age 5 (RG12 1310:13:20) at 4 Cooks Road, Stratford. In 1901 census George is nowhere to be found but William,Sarah and Florence are at Cooks Road. In the 1911 Census George is back with my g-grandparents in 4 Cooks Road, Stratford. My maternal grandparents have my aunt, Florrie, who now 4 years old and as George is single, so the story goes, and has no-one to leave his property to he decides to leave it to her.

My g-grandparents die between 1914-16 and George dies in 1919. My grandparents, Florrie and Henry Cunningham continue to live at 4 Cooks Road until bombed out during the second world war. That is where I get the 50 years from.

I have found a potential census record for George in 1851. HO107: 1768: 100: 40). George is 4 and is down as being born in East Ham to William and Ellen Copeland with a sister Caroline. That's as far as I have got.

I am researching at Newham Archives in Stratford in early June will I be able to glean anything from electoral rolls (not sure when they started) or anything else anyone can suggest.

I think I will leave the merchant seaman bit until I have a bit more information.

Good weekend everyone.



Lesleyl

[Raffaele]

Seeing you are in search of electoral registers these may well not provide any help. Whilst Womens suffrage took the headlines in 1918, women over 30 got the vote and in 1928 all women got the vote, the fact that not all men had the right to vote until 1918.

In the 1830's a Chartist movement arose as the vote was only allowed to men who owned property. This movement got the leaders deported. See Jeremy Irons, Who do you think you are, by the BBC. From the 1860's on the votes for men was slowly liberalised but the facts are quite hard to find.

Whether George would have qualified for the vote, I have no idea.

[lesleyl]

I have received what I thought were George's birth and death certificates but unfortunately I cannot confirm that these are of the George that was lodging with my g-grandparents in 1911.

I thought the death certificate I found in 1919 - the age at death appeared about right and would give me the name of the informant (I was hoping that it would have my grandmother) but this George Copeland was a former greengrocer and not a merchant seaman.

I have scoured FreeBMD and Ancestry but can't seem to find any other possibilities.

The info I have gleaned from the 1911 census is born c1847 East Ham age 64, lodger, pensioner former merchant seaman. As I mentioned before he also appears on the 1891 census as a lodger with my grandparents.

I thought if I found more accurate dates of birth and death then I could pursue the merchant seaman route and ultimately to the land in South Africa left to my aunt.

Help again please!!!!

[stickymone]

Hi Lesleyl,

Tracing this piece of land in SA is not going to be easy, but not impossible. Land records have been recorded in SA since the 17th century. Their registry system is similar to our own with the owner of property possessing the' Title Deeds' to that property.

When a property is sold or ownership is transfered the Registrar of Deeds has to sign the transfer before 'Title deeds' are issued to a new owner. A copy of the deeds are retained by the Deeds office.

As your man appears to have been a sailor I would suggest that if he owned any land it would be in Natal the Eastern Cape or the Western Cape. These Provinces are where the main ports are situated.

I would suggest that you start your search at the relevant provincial Deeds Offices

Durban for Natal
Cape Town for the Western Cape
Bhisho for the Eastern Cape (I'd do the other 2 first)

My understanding is that their system allows searches to be made by name as well as property location or Title Deed number

Contact details for the above can be obtained from the SA Goverment web site.

Be warned though this will not be a quick process If you think Brussels is bureaucratic "you ain't seen nothing yet" If you get my drift

Stickymone

[lesleyl]

In my quest to find out more about George Copland I thought I would try to determine when he died and work back from there, so I thought the electoral rolls would give me a clue as they are yearly 'census'.

Unfortunately George Copland never seemed to appear on any. I tried from 1899 to 1920 and although William Burchnell and Florence Cunningham (nee Burchnell) appeared George did not.

Can anyone tell me what the criteria was for appearing on the electoral roll back then. I have been told it was to do with owning property but as William Burchnell and then my grandmother, Florence, never owned 4 Cooks Road this cannot be the case.

I will get to the provincial deeds offices that Stickymone mentioned when I have more concrete information.

If it is coming up 100 years since George probably died do you think title to land in South Africa would still be valid? Sorry, that's me just talking out loud.