Richard Smith c1820

[babygirl101]

Yesterday I received a marriage certificate for Mary Smith and John Bower. They were married 26th Aug 1863 at Hayton, Notts. From the searches I had done prior to this I fully expected to see Mary's father as Henry Smith. When the certificate arrived dad's name was Richard, a chairmender, not what I was expecting to see at all, to be honest I was just looking for confirmation of what I had already found!

Mary, had given Blidworth/Mansfield, Notts, as her PoB on the census returns from her marriage up to her death, post 1911, but I can't find any trace of her prior to marriage, except for an entry which gives a Mary d/o Henry and Ann, again it gave this Mary as born in Blidworth, so I thought I'd got the right one???

Has anyone come across a Richard about 1820ish, anywhere, with a daughtr Mary born Blidworth 1844?

I was going to try to get a birth certificate for her ... but needle in haystack springs to mind, there are too many to even guess which one could be her around that time in that area.

Any suggestion pleeeease, anyone, as to how to follow this one up

Many thanks as always

BG

[JoanneM]

They always manage to throw a curve ball at you, don't they?

I only know of one Richard Smith of about that period, and he is a chair mender, but I don't think he's yours.

Skillington 3rd Aug 1827 Matilda Smith d/o Richard and Ann of Skillington chair mender

(Matilda married Hiram Price in 1846 and was a witness at the marriage of Wisdom Smith and Amy Haywood in Bourne in 1853).

Then another daughter of Richard and Ann (because Matilda is boarding with her family in later census returns and listed as sister, and also because Richard is named as her father on her marriage) is Mary Ann born c.1838 in Lincolnshire.

Roughly about the same age to be your Mary but she marries Reuben Smith in 1858 in Gosberton and appears with him on subsequent census returns.

(Reuben Smith is the son of Ezechiel Tennant Smith born c.1798 North Aston Oxfordshire, and Bechina/Beechanna who I suspect is a Booth).

Does kind of beg the question, are there two gypsy Richard Smiths in the area at the time, or are both Mary's daughters of his? With all the name changes and multiple wives I suppose it's possible.

Jo.

[JoanneM]

On the 1871 census entry for Mary and John Bower, if you go back a page there is a Richard Smith of an age (just) to be Mary's father.

Richard Smith head mar 42 hawker and pedlar Osberton Leics
Mary wife mar 42 hawker Normanton Notts
Henry son unm 22 hawker Sheffield
Joseph son 15 hawker Mansfield

Son Henry seems to be in Nottingham in 1881 (RG11; Piece: 3377; Folio: 12; Page: 17) and at Spital Hill in Clarborough in 1891 (RG12; Piece: 2639; Folio 46; Page 29). He has a wife, Ann, born c.1855'ish in Newark.

There is an interesting marriage at Newark Jun qtr 1874 where on the same page is a Henry Smith and an Ann Beard.

I had a look for an Ann Beard on earlier census returns and couldn't find her, but remembered a previous convo.

John Bowers father married secondly Sarah Beard/er (and Matilda Price d/o Richard Smith was a witness at that wedding). Sarah and John had a daughter Ann, baptised Dec 1854 in Newark. We hadn't found out what happened to her. You don't suppose she married as a Beard, do you? What would that make it, she married her half-brothers, brother-in-law?

Also on the 1871 they are with a Hogg and an Elliott family.

Jo.

[babygirl101]

Well done Jo, I think you're quite right, it definitely looks like the right Richard, I can't work out where he was from though, apart from Leic, it's not clear on the actual census, neither are their DoB's. I'll try to find them on the other census returns now - wish me luck!!

You're right about Matilda Price being at John's father, John's wedding to Sarah Bearder I have their marriage cert. Matilda was however, the d/o Richard Price not Smith. As for Ann's wedding to Henry Smith OMG, how very confusing, it's too late in the day for me to try and figure that possibility out, it's almost not an option I want to consider lol, so I'll look at it tomorrow.

Once again thanks for all your help as usual and I'll let you know tomorrow how that one pans out.

BG

[JoanneM]

Well done Jo, I think you're quite right, it definitely looks like the right Richard, I can't work out where he was from though, apart from Leic, it's not clear on the actual census, neither are their DoB's. I'll try to find them on the other census returns now - wish me luck!!

I rather think it'll be like looking for the proverbial needle in a haystack. He could be right in saying he was born Leics, but Osberton is in Notts, and there is also Gosberton in Lincs, so that's three counties!

Matilda was however, the d/o Richard Price not Smith.

Or could be d/o Richard Smith who married Hiram Price. She does seem to have been a bit of a serial wedding witnesser.

Joseph Smith is, I think, close by his brother Henry in 1881, on the next page of the census. The same Joseph is in Clarborough in 1891. Both brothers go on to have a daughter named Lydia, so I can't help but think that the widowed Lydia Elliott on the 1871 is important. There's a Harriet bapt at the right time, but wrong place to a Thomas and Lydia Elliott.

Jo.

[babygirl101]

Jo, Brilliant, yes, it's the right children and both brothers were living near their sister Mary w/o John Bower. As for Richard, as you say it could be Leic, but given that the family appeared around Retford I suspect Osberton's the most likely.

So far I've followed Joseph who married Mary Ann through to 1901 when Jo was a widow. Mary died 1896, having produced 13 children, one every year of her adult life!!

The only thing that looks to be a problem, is if, Mary's age was correct her first child, Mary Ann, b 1874, then mum was only 14/15 when the child was born, not impossible, but concerning and I haven't found a baptism on Notts FH records for her.

I haven't definitely found a marriage for Joseph, but the most likely one seems to be to a Mary Ann Gregory, Sept 1878, Mansfield, although there's also another one that 1/4 to Mary Ann Metcalf, Newark. I'd need the certificates I think to check this out.

I'll carry on now looking at Henrys family and see where that leads, as you say they were in Clarborough in 1891, but I haven't found them in 1901, yet.

Many thanks

BG

[babygirl101]

I have a sneaking suspicion that Joseph did marry Mary Ann Gregory (1.7.1878, Mansfield) as the family seems to already have connections to the Gregory family.

John Bower & Mary Smith's daughter Ann Bower (1867) married an Edward Gregory (1866, Hawker), 10 Jul 1888. His father was a chairmender from Sutton in Ashfield.

I feel yet another certificate order coming on, eeeek!!!.

Onwards and upwards (or around in circles)

BG

[babygirl101]

Well that's done it - I've order certs for both of Marys brothers - Henry and Joseph, this should be enlightening!!

BG

[JoanneM]

I'll carry on now looking at Henrys family and see where that leads, as you say they were in Clarborough in 1891, but I haven't found them in 1901, yet.

There's a lot of the baptisms on freereg. One was for James Percy Smith bapt. 1894 in Retford - searching for him I found the family in 1901, at Moorgate, Retford. Henry has died as Anne is a widow.

RG13; Piece: 3119; Folio: 8; Page: 7

One 14th March 1888 Henry and Ann baptised a daughter, Amy, at Retford, and on the same day Joseph and Anna Wiltshire of Moorgate, hawker, bapt a daughter, Mary Ann (in case there is a connection between those two families). Haven't found Joseph and Anna elsewhere yet, though.

Jo.

[babygirl101]

Thanks once again, Jo for that reference, I've now found them all, plus births/baptisms for all Henry's children.

Going back to Richard, still no luck finding him though, but that age on the 1871 census is so unclear he could have been born anytime from 1800 to 1823 and as you say in any of 3 counties. Certainly the idea of Gosberton Lincs looks favourite, given that Matilda was born there and that connects the Smith, Bowers and Prices yet again. I'm wondering if just maybe Matilda could have been Richards sister if he was born c1823 it would have been quite feasible. It would make sense if both Richard and Matilda were children of Richard & Ann to have named their eldest son after his father but I can't prove it yet so it remains another mystery.

As for the Elliotts, I been looking at various marriage certificates I have, and there's an Abigail and Henry Elliott who were witnesses at Lydia Smith and Hawthorns marriage in 1888.

My head is well and truly spinning lol

BG