ORGILL OR IS IT BATES????

[mummyatherbest]

HELLO I AM LOOKING FOR ANY INFO ON A LADY CALLED MARTHA ELIZABETH ORGILL SHE WAS BORN 1906 DERBY. BUT WHEN SHE MARRIES WILLIAM HENRY HOLLAND(B 1905 DERBY) SHE IS MARTHA E BATES. SO IF THERE IS ANY ONE WHO CAN HELP ME I WOULD BE VERY GREATFUL. FROM KELLY

[Lincoln Lad]

Do you mean on the certificate she is shown as Martha E Bates?

Free BMD has the marriage March quarter 1925 of William H Holland to Martha E Orgill.

[mummyatherbest]

marthas daughter has the the marriage cert she said that on there it is orgill but she was using the name bates. so it makes it difficult to find her i dont know weather her mother remarried or if she was born when her mother wasnt married. but i i tryed to get in touch with marthas daughter but cant seem to get in touch with her. so cant get any more if from her. so any info would be great.THANK YOU

[Kerrywood]

marthas daughter has the the marriage cert she said that on there it is orgill but she was using the name bates. so it makes it difficult to find her i dont know weather her mother remarried or if she was born when her mother wasnt married

Here's a possible scenario:

Births Jun 1906
ORGILL Martha Elizabeth
Derby 7b 604

There's a FreeBMD index entry for a possible marriage of Frank BATES and Elizabeth ORGILL. This Elizabeth may be Martha's mother.

Marriages Jun 1906
BATES Frank Derby 7b 1146
Jones Joseph Derby 7b 1146
ORGILL Elizabeth Derby 7b 1146
Westmoreland Ethel Clara Derby 7b 1146

The marriage may have been after Martha's birth, since Martha could have been born any time after mid-February and still registered in the June quarter.

Martha then adopts the surname BATES. There is a possible candidate in 1911 census as Martha Elizabeth BATES age 6 living in Derby. The index suggests there is a Frank BATES and Elizabeth BATES in the same household.

Martha then marries in 1925 using her proper birth name of ORGILL.

Finally, going back to 1901, there's a candidate in Derby for the possible mother Elizabeth ORGILL:

RG13-3223 folio 18 page 28
8 Exeter Street, Derby
John ORGILL Head M 54 Iron Driller Staffs Wednesbury
Eliza ORGILL Wife M 33 Derby
William ORGILL Son S 33 Hosiery Machinist Staffs Wednesbury
Elizabeth ORGILL Daur S 18 Ditto Derby
Lizzie ORGILL [no relationship] S 14 Ditto Derby

All the above is highly speculative. You'll need the 1925 marriage certificate, the 1906 marriage certificate and the 1906 birth certificate to be sure of the facts

Kerrywood

[mummyatherbest]

thank you for helpping me

[mummyatherbest]

hello on marthas marrage cert there is no farther it has a line through it so i still dont know. what would you do next?( bates or orgill)

[Geoffers]

hello on marthas marrage cert there is no farther it has a line through it so i still dont know. what would you do next?( bates or orgill)

This would hint at Martha being born illegitimate.

If she married with the name ORGILL, and she was shown as being a spinster, then that is the name I'd search for in the GRO birth index.

Kerrywood's sugesgtion seems quite plausible.

Can you identify Martha in the 1911 census?

How do you come by the name BATES?

[mummyatherbest]

hello info on births with marthas dates she is martha elizabeth orgill and on marrage cert she is orgill she married a man named william henry holland and they had a child sydney holland on his birth cert she is using bates has her maiden name and it is the same with sydneys bothers and sisters but i dont know why. all i know is martha has a brother name frank and other bothers and sisters but names not known

[Kerrywood]

If Martha was brought up as BATES, it would be understandable to use that name on her children's birth registrations, even though it was not strictly her maiden name. Who registered the births?

You say Martha had a brother called Frank. This household is found in the 1911 Derby census (as mentioned in my post #4 above).

RG14PN20883 RG78PN1247A RD435 SD2 ED12 SN179
Address: 19 Grove Place, Derby
BATES Frank, Head, Married, Male, age 29, Fettlars Labourer, born Derby
BATES Elizabeth, Wife, Married 5 years, Female, age 29, born Derby
BATES Frank, Son, Single, Male, age 9, born Derby
BATES Martha, Daughter, Single, Female, age 6, born Derby
BATES Bertha, Daughter, Single, Female, age 6 months, born Derby

This shows that Frank BATES and Elizabeth had been married 5 years, which fits well with the BATES/ORGILL marriage in Jun Qtr 1906 (see my post #4 above).

If Martha was illegitimate, then she was being ultra honest when she married in 1925 as ORGILL, without naming a father. Many girls in that position were not so honest and gave their stepfather's name instead.

I suggest you order the 1906 birth certificate for Martha Elizabeth ORGILL and see if her mother was Elizabeth ORGILL and whether a father is named. You can also check whether the address for the birth, or at least the approximate area of Derby, is close to the address for the BATES family in 1911 or the ORGILL family in 1901 (see my post #4 above).

I feel this is likely to be the right family, but the decision has to be yours. Depending on what is in the birth certificate, you may have to go with the "balance of probability" rather than with clear proof.

Kerrywood

[mummyatherbest]

i cant thank you enough for all your help. (THANK YOU). WITH MANY MANY THANKS FROM KELLY