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  1. #1
    Rozzie
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    Lightbulb Painter surname - Cork connections and family secrets

    I really need tuition in what Irish records are available, so that I can unravel a family secret. My Gt/Grandmother Emma Painter was always referred to as The Irish Granny. This turned out to be a total red herring and I spent years trying to find her. I unravelled part of her sad story just recently and this is how it goes. She was born into the Painter family in Oct 1838 in Wareham, Dorset. Her birth is not registered as it was not compulsory to do so at that time. Her family attended the non-conformist Presbytarian Church in Wareham, which indicates they may have originally been Quakers. There is no record of her baptism at that church. I found a simple entry of the name EMMA in Oct 1838 in the C of E Church, Lady St Mary. The only Emma born that year in Wareham - no surname and no parents names.

    She then disappears completely, along with 15 year old Elizabeth Painter. Neither are in any Census records in 1841 or 1851. Nothing is ever heard of Elizabeth again, but Emma suddenly turns up in the 1861 Census records of Poole, Dorset, where she is now Married to Peter Way and has her own children, She is totally Irish saying she grew up in CORK and establishes herself as quite a character. She could not read or write and signed the Banns of her marriage with a cross, so she obviously did not get an education. When she married, she or someone else produced a birth cert which was that of a different Emma Painter, who died when 10 yrs old.

    None of her children are named for her Mother or any of the Painter family.

    Where did Emma go ? To Quakers or C of E in Cork ? Who took her in ? was Elizabeth with her ? Was her birth registered in Ireland.

    Not knowing what records to look for is a dilemma. I would like to find the details of what happened in Ireland.

    Any help at all would be very much appreciated.

  2. #2
    Wirral
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rozzie View Post
    but Emma suddenly turns up in the 1861 Census records of Poole, Dorset, where she is now Married to Peter Way and has her own children, She is totally Irish saying she grew up in CORK and establishes herself as quite a character. She could not read or write and signed the Banns of her marriage with a cross, so she obviously did not get an education. When she married, she or someone else produced a birth cert which was that of a different Emma Painter, who died when 10 yrs old.
    In all the censuses from 1861 to 1901, Emma WAY, wife of Peter WAY, says she was born in Dorset. Where does the mention of Cork come from? I don't think you needed a copy of your birth certificate to get married, unless it was a Roman Catholic marriage. In which case, the original church marriage register may say the parish that Emma came from, not where she was living at the time.
    Do the birth & marriage certificates confirm that you have the correct Emma? What was her father's name & occupation on her marriage certificate?

  3. #3
    Mutley
    Guest

    Default

    There is a birth registration for an Emma Painter in Wrexham in Oct-Dec quarter of 1838. To order the certificate the reference is 27/245

  4. #4
    Procat
    Guest

    Default

    Hi Rozzie,

    I have slightly edited the name of your thread to make it (hopefully) more meaningful.

  5. #5
    Rozzie
    Guest

    Default

    Emma had the Southern Irish brogue and always said she was from Cork. However, in the Census records, she knew full well she had actually been born in Wareham, Dorset. On one ocasion only, did the Census taker enter Poole as her birthplace. I think the census taker entered Poole automatically.

    As I understand it, the Baptismal Certificate was always used as identity for future marriage/death etc. After 1837, births were registered (but not always) and the birth cert produced to prevent bigamy. The cert that Emma produced when she married Peter Way, stated that her Father was Joseph Painter, a Farmer in Shapwick. This is not her birth cert, as Emma Painter, dtr of Joseph Painter of Shapwick, died in Shapwick at the age of 10 years. Emma could not read or write and probably did not realise it was the wrong cert that someone obtained for her.

    Emma was a real character - known in the town as Granny Way - proprietor of a home made sweet shop. I have had letters from people who emigrated to USA/OZ etc, who wrote nostaligically of Granny Way and her slab toffee. Her illiteracy did not hold her back on that score.

    I once found the Wrexham Emma Painter and it crossed my mind that she might have been registered there on 'their' way to the Ferry for Ireland. It could be an eye opener to get that copy of that birth cert.

    What was the scandal all about, to be so secretive about Emma's existence, to whisk her out of the country. Apparently she talked of Ireland all the time but if she told anyone the secret, it has never been passed on. It took me 35 years to get this far and I would like to find out where she went in Cork.

    Meanwhile I will send for that cert.

  6. #6
    Mutley
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rozzie View Post
    Emma was a real character - known in the town as Granny Way - proprietor of a home made sweet shop. I have had letters from people who emigrated to USA/OZ etc, who wrote nostaligically of Granny Way and her slab toffee. Her illiteracy did not hold her back on that score.
    Sorry Rozzie, I have become really confused. Granny Way's toffee must have been made about 150 years ago. You obviously have other evidence to support her life.

    Wirral says she has found her in the census up to 1901, you think she was born in abt 1838, therefore she left for Ireland in her 60's after the census.

    Have I got it right so far?

  7. #7
    Hall/Swan
    Guest

    Default May or May not!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rozzie View Post
    I really need tuition in what Irish records are available, so that I can unravel a family secret. My Gt/Grandmother Emma Painter was always referred to as The Irish Granny. This turned out to be a total red herring and I spent years trying to find her. I unravelled part of her sad story just recently and this is how it goes. She was born into the Painter family in Oct 1838 in Wareham, Dorset. Her birth is not registered as it was not compulsory to do so at that time. Her family attended the non-conformist Presbytarian Church in Wareham, which indicates they may have originally been Quakers. There is no record of her baptism at that church. I found a simple entry of the name EMMA in Oct 1838 in the C of E Church, Lady St Mary. The only Emma born that year in Wareham - no surname and no parents names.

    She then disappears completely, along with 15 year old Elizabeth Painter. Neither are in any Census records in 1841 or 1851. Nothing is ever heard of Elizabeth again, but Emma suddenly turns up in the 1861 Census records of Poole, Dorset, where she is now Married to Peter Way and has her own children, She is totally Irish saying she grew up in CORK and establishes herself as quite a character. She could not read or write and signed the Banns of her marriage with a cross, so she obviously did not get an education. When she married, she or someone else produced a birth cert which was that of a different Emma Painter, who died when 10 yrs old.

    None of her children are named for her Mother or any of the Painter family.

    Where did Emma go ? To Quakers or C of E in Cork ? Who took her in ? was Elizabeth with her ? Was her birth registered in Ireland.

    Not knowing what records to look for is a dilemma. I would like to find the details of what happened in Ireland.

    Any help at all would be very much appreciated.
    She could have gone anywhere, even return to her Irish family.. as long lost cousin etc.

    Did she marry in Ireland before retuning to Poole??

  8. #8
    Rozzie
    Guest

    Default

    Emma was a Dorset girl, immediately whisked off to Ireland as soon as she was born in 1838 - either to a Church Orphanage run by Quakers, Presbytarians etc. She was not Catholic. She could have been taken in by a Church family - we just don't know. She came back to Dorset in her teens and married Peter Way in 1857 at St James Church, Poole, Dorset. She died in 1917 in Poole. The people who brought her up could have been related but I don't think so. As 15 year old Elizabeth disappeared at the same time and there is no record of her death, it is assumed she was the Mother of Emma and she probably died in Ireland. They may well have gone to a Mother & Baby home in Cork.

    We know so much about her because she made a huge impression on the family and the town. We all have red hair because of her - generation after generation. It is possible that Emma was the product of rape.

    Any clearer ?

  9. #9
    Hall/Swan
    Guest

    Default

    Clear as mud!!

    The trouble is so many many records were destroyed over the years, esp 1916/1922.

    Many records were only kept in local parishes.

    Any idea of where in Cork she went? The best thing I can think of is school records. Very very few records are avalable online.

    The complete Records IT section is 5 miles away from me but I have to go 80 miles to Dublin to use it!!

  10. #10
    Hall/Swan
    Guest

    Default

    Forgot to ask, do you have anything on Elizabeth that gives any hint of her maiden name, was she Irish?

    Or did her parents come from Ireland, maybe years before or even her g/parents?

    She "was whisked away to Ireland" at the start of famine times in Ireland, she survived that so she must have been hellped by someone, so some arrangements must have beem made. It could be that she returned to some relation there!!

    Otherwise...why Ireland?

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