Ordering certs from a local Registry Office

[Tinker]

Am I right in thinking that it's cheaper to order from the local registry office than the GRO? If so, which is the correct registry office for the area covering St. Luke's, Old Street, in London, and how do I contact them? I need to order a certificate for a second marriage in order to find out the bride's maiden name, as her first marriage was around 1824, and I don't know whether it took place in London or in Buckinghamshire where she was born. As you can tell, this is the first time I've tried this so any advice would be really helpful!

[Ladkyis]

No, a certificate should cost exactly the same whether you buy it from the GRO or from the local Register Office.
For a marriage certificate from a local Register Office you have to know the name of the church where the marriage took place because each church has a separate register book and that's how they stay in the Register office. And if it was a second marriage then they might have married in the register office itself.
Why not look it up on the GRO Index - most big libraries have a copy of the index on microfiche, or if you have a subscription to one of the pay-per-view websites several have the online GRO index - to find the exact quarter when the marriage took place and then look on here
https://www.genuki.org.uk/
to find which local register office covers the area.

I hope this helps

[Peter Goodey]

The price of certificates is laid down by law.

Many London Register Offices are reluctant, because of lack of resources, to provide certificates for family history purposes. In most cases, people are better off ordering certificates from GRO.

As already suggested, use the GRO indexes to narrow down your search and to reduce costs.

I assume you're saying that the second marriage was after 1837. If any children were born 1837 and their births were registered, you should have the certificates. If the system was working properly, the birth certificates should show the mother's former name and her maiden name. This is more reliable than having to guess the right marriage.

[Guy Etchells]

The price of certificates is laid down by law.

Many London Register Offices are reluctant, because of lack of resources, to provide certificates for family history purposes. In most cases, people are better off ordering certificates from GRO.

That is the best reason I have heard for ordering from them.

They are paid good money to provide certificates for family history research. That was in fact one of the very reasons civil registration was mandated.
If they can't be bothered to do their jobs properly sack them and replace them with those who will comply with the law of the land.

Sorry but that kind of excuse really makes me angry.
Cheers
Guy

[Peter Goodey]

I think that Tinker just wants to obtain a certificate not to make some sort of political point.

[Ken Boyce]

Some thoughts and some questions

I've read in a number of publications (copycats or no) that District Registras are mandated to serve the present day marriage and presumably B & D registration clientel and thus do not commit serious resources to serve the needs of family historiians who, I dare to suggest would be quite happy to obtain a non-notarised copy of a register extract. (Extracts from PRs and census are not certified except when required for legal purposes and sometimes when used offshore in lieu.)

Whilst the issueing of non-certified extracts would not save District Offices much in the way of resources it would allow other legitiment sources to issue such documents at least from the duplicate marriage registers where these exist. Also what role could or do the County (!) Record Offices/Archives now play if any in the storage of registers and the issueuing of extracts from the archieved registers

Whilst it can be argued that identity thieft is of concern in these times that was not the case in the 19C and up to the 1940s when the regulations were formated and when one could obtain an birth extract clearly marked "not to be used for legal purposes" as marked on my two completely differing pro-forma birth certs

If so mandated as above by whom?

Do we really need certified documents for our purposes?

What now is the relationship between Registration Offices and County Record Offices and the like?

Regards

[Guy Etchells]

Some thoughts and some questions

I've read in a number of publications (copycats or no) that District Registras are mandated to serve the present day marriage and presumably B & D registration clientel and thus do not commit serious resources to serve the needs of family historiians who, I dare to suggest would be quite happy to obtain a non-notarised copy of a register extract. (Extracts from PRs and census are not certified except when required for legal purposes and sometimes when used offshore in lieu.)

Before I answer you question please consider whether you mean District Registrars are above the law of the land and are free to make up whatever rules they wish.
Or whether District Registrars like every other person in the United Kingdom have to obey the law of the land even if it causes them more work.

If the first then we may as well forget laws and arm ourselves as the law of the jungle rules.

If the second then the law is explicit on the subject:-
The Births and Deaths Registration Act, 1953
"31.-(1) Every superintendent registrar shall cause indexes of the registers of live-births and registers of deaths in his register office to be made and to be kept with the other records of that office, and the Registrar General shall supply to every superintendent registrar suitable forms for the making of such indexes.
(2) Any person shall be entitled at any time when the register office is required to be open for the transaction of public business to search the said indexes, and to have a certified copy of any entry in the said registers under the hand of the superintendent register, on payment by that person to the of the superintendent registrar of the following fees respectively, that is to say-"
I have not included the fees as these are amended annually.

I do not see any provision in the above law that allows the Superintendent Registrar to decide who they will supply and who they will not supply.
Neither do I see any provision that they will ony supply certificates if they have time to do so.

Whilst the issueing of non-certified extracts would not save District Offices much in the way of resources it would allow other legitiment sources to issue such documents at least from the duplicate marriage registers where these exist. Also what role could or do the County (!) Record Offices/Archives now play if any in the storage of registers and the issueuing of extracts from the archieved registers

I assume now you are writing about parish and non-conformist registers held by the incumbent or registering officer etc.

The Marriage Act, 1949:-

"63.-(I) Every incumbent, registering officer of the Society of Friends, secretary of a synagogue and registrar by whom a marriage register book is kept shall at all reasonable hours allow searches to be made in any marriage register book in his keeping, and shall give a copy certified under his hand of any entry in such a book, on payment of the following fee, that is to say-" Again fees omitted as they change annually.

Any copy of an entry in a marriage register supplied by an incumbent etc. is a certified copy just the same as a copy supplied by a Registrar.

The public of course may search any register held by an incumbent etc. and make their own copy of an entry if they so wish. This also applies to any register of Birth, Marriage or Death held by a Registrar any member of the public may search the registers in his/her keeping and make a copy of any entry they wish.
(Note this does not apply to Superintendent Registrars or to the General Registrar.)

Whilst it can be argued that identity thieft is of concern in these times that was not the case in the 19C and up to the 1940s when the regulations were formated and when one could obtain an birth extract clearly marked "not to be used for legal purposes" as marked on my two completely differing pro-forma birth certs

If so mandated as above by whom?

Do we really need certified documents for our purposes?

What now is the relationship between Registration Offices and County Record Offices and the like?

Regards

Identity theft does not come into the equation in the slightest.
How can it?
Anyone in the whole world can legally apply for any birth, marriage or death certificate for any person born in the UK and they will on payment of the current fee be supplied with a genuine legal certificate, they cannot legally be refused.
That certificate does not prove identity it only proves that the person on it was born, married or died on a specific date.
Other documents are required to prove identity.
Cheers
Guy

[Tinker]

Thank you all for your comments. It looks as if I might as well order the cert from the GRO if there's no difference in the costs!

I do have the GRO details for the marriage of Hannah Newton and James Thomas Goddard, Mar Q 1850, so ordering it will not be a problem. At the time of her marriage she was in her mid to late forties if I remember correctly, and her children from the previous marriage were all born prior to compulsory registration! As you'll probably have gathered from what I've said, Hannah was too old to produce any more offspring, so this is my desperate attempt to track down her maiden name!! (The children were all supposedly born in Clerkenwell, apart from her youngest who was born in Islington, but so far I've not been able to find even a sniff of their baptisms!)

[Guy Etchells]

Cost is the same but the (marriage) certificate from the GRO may not be the same.
Some local registrar's still transcribe the certificate, if so nothing is lost.
However many photocopy the certificate in which case one gets a copy of the original which includes ones ancestor's signatures .
That (even the chance of it) to me is the best reason to purchase locally.
Cheers
Guy

[Tinker]

Oh, wow! I didn't know that, so it might well be worth a shot enquiring at the local registry office just for the extra info. It would be interesting to see whether Hannah could write. I don't know whether Hannah and her first husband were educated or not, but their children all seemed to be fairly intelligent. The daughter married a jeweller and one of the sons went on to become a cork merchant with a fairly good business which survived into the early 1900s