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  1. #31
    nancyt
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    Hello Jane and Allen,
    No I have no proof that the name Helena or Helena Elizabeth was used before her marrige She is Helena on the death records though. According to my mothers memories of her she was an educated lady.The London birth and the School in Brighton are all things passed by word of mouth. I do think though that the use of Ellen Elizabeth at her marrige might just be a mistake on the part of the registrar, as no birth cert. can have been required, I assume, as she has put down an Archibald Price as her father.
    nancyt

  2. #32
    KateJones
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    Hello Nancy,
    I've been watching on the side for a few days, and this has interested me quite a bit - but it seems that there are very few documented facts to go on. I think that until you can discover some further information it is unlikely that you will unravel this particular mystery.
    Do you know where Helena married? You have said that possibly the name was misheard and written as Ellen. Are you able to confirm that what is written on the marriage certificate in the 'name box' is the same as the signature at the bottom? (ie: that both say Ellen, and not Helena). Also, if she married in a church is it possible to look at a film of the register and see if she signed as Helena or Ellen?

  3. #33
    Jane M
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    As you're online, I thought I would answer the marriage question Kate.
    Marriage cert. 1887 Cardiff to Henry Robert Ashfield, she is 21.
    You've brought up some good points Kate, perhaps they might lead Nancy somewhere

    Jane

  4. #34
    nancyt
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    Quote Originally Posted by KateJones View Post
    Hello Nancy,
    I've been watching on the side for a few days, and this has interested me quite a bit - but it seems that there are very few documented facts to go on. I think that until you can discover some further information it is unlikely that you will unravel this particular mystery.
    Do you know where Helena married? You have said that possibly the name was misheard and written as Ellen. Are you able to confirm that what is written on the marriage certificate in the 'name box' is the same as the signature at the bottom? (ie: that both say Ellen, and not Helena). Also, if she married in a church is it possible to look at a film of the register and see if she signed as Helena or Ellen?
    Hi Kate ,
    how clever of you to think of the signature on the marriage cert. I have never even looked at that,It's just so easy to miss the obvious, and yes on the copy of the cert. she has signed as E.E.Price, so much for my theory then.
    Does this help or does the plot thicken!!? The marrige took place in a Registry office in Cardiff.
    nancyt

  5. #35
    KateJones
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    Hello Nancy,
    It doesn't necessarily mean that she signed it as E E Price, to be absolutely sure you'd need to be able to look at a copy of the original register. Any certificate you get, even if it's a photocopy of the GRO records, has still been transcribed from original records, often multiple times. It's just possible it started life as 'Helena Elizabeth' and 'H E', but has been miscopied.

    It's also possible that on marriage she reverts to the 'correct' form on her birth certificate, while using "Helena" the rest of the time. I can think of several people nowadays that don't use the form of their name that appears on their birth certificate - one of my cousins was born Jane Claire, and always known as Claire as a child - she's now Daisy.

    This is really a puzzle - there are a couple of points that really seem strange to me:
    1) If she was educated in England, why does she marry in Cardiff? It suggests that she must have kept in contact with her mother, and moved to Wales when she left school. We have to wonder when that might have been.

    2) I'm also a bit surprised that if she was educated she married a 'pit prop' man - it looks a bit like 'marrying beneath herself' (even despite the illegitimacy) - although looking at his family they seem to have been fairly 'colourful'.

    3) Why say that her father was Archibald? This was never a common name, although it became more common towards the end of the century. It was mostly Scottish - very rarely Welsh. Why choose that name - was it just any name - or was there some truth in it?

    4) I don't suppose anyone ever said whether she had an English or a Welsh accent did they? If she had a Welsh accent it must have been acquired in childhood and she would have to have spent at least some time in Wales before adulthood.

    Regards

  6. #36
    nancyt
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    Hi Kate,
    point taken, so how would I get to see an actual copy of the original marrige cert. as it is was a registry office wedding would the county records office hold the original maybe? I am going to Wales in April specifically to do some research. Henry Robert has his profession as butcher on the marrige cert, but as the story goes, he was a soldier. On the 1881 census he is a labourer. Helena / Ellen just has spinster no mention of an occupation. But she was supposed to have been a trainee nurse in London. I have been unable to find either army records for him [ though without a regiment it would be pretty nearly impossible I would think] or nursing records for her. I have only tried St. Barts as yet, as that was where she is said to have trained. Oh I know it just gets worse!
    nancyt

  7. #37
    Alan Welsford
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    Hi Nancy,

    I was pondering myself what the situation is with seeing original registers, (or films of original registers), when it was a civil wedding. For church weddings the registers usually end up (eventually!) deposited with a country records office, and are generally then microfilmed. So what you see is your ancestors actual signature, (or mark for many of mine!), on the page. I don't see why the same should not apply to register office registers when full, but I've just looked at the catalogues for my own local county, and they are not mentioned.

    Someone here may know, or you can contact the Cardiff records office
    https://www.glamro.gov.uk/contact.htm
    and put the question to them.

    I've still been looking at your problem, but am increasingly struck that for both mother and daughter we have to place a lot of credence on information given at Helena's wedding, and in the two censuses that followed.

    If that were all true, then we should be able to find both an Ellen or Helena born about 1866 in London, and an Elizabeth born about 1853 in Hay-on-Wye.

    In practice I can't find a sniff of either, and have to manipulate dates, or places, or both, to start finding possible matches. I'm left wondering what we can trust.

    For Elizabeth she may just have entered the workhouse with somebody guessing an age, that just got incremented as required, as she progressed through the system. The birthplace of Hay-on-Wye may just be a convenience used, and she may have actually been from some nearby place, (for example an Elizabeth Price can be found as a servant in an upmarket Chelsea address in 1861, who is from Glasbury - this isn't very far from Hay).

    Helena, on the other hand wanted to marry in 1887, with no "official" father, and her mother possibly already burned or institutionalised by that date, (please correct me if that's wrong). So she could have been struggling to get parental consent for a wedding, if she were not yet 21. Perhaps she was younger, and "massaged" her age up, to be "off full age". Having done that, it then could have stuck so her census ages are consistent with her marriage age.

    I'll admit I'm just throwing more ideas into the melting pot, but I feel sure the data we are using to try and find these people before 1891 must be at least partially flawed.

    Finally the topic of Henry Robert Ashfield being a soldier.

    I'm assuming you think you have located who you believe to be Henry in censuses before his marriage ? The reason I ask is that whilst I've seen no evidence of him being a soldier, if I have the right family, his father most certainly was associated with the military.

    I'm assuming this is the family in Lydney, Gloucestershire in 1871
    Class: RG10; Piece: 5296; Folio: 69; Page: 11

    William, 48, Seargeant Instructor of Volunteers, born Middlesex, London
    Martha, 43, born Ireland Cork
    Alfred, 20, Painter, born Cape of Good Hope, Cape Town
    Thomas, 15, Engine Fitter, born Cape of Good Hope, Cape Town
    Theodore, 11, Scholar, born Devon, Plymouth
    John, 10, Scholar, born Kent, Chatham
    Henry, 7, Scholar, born Gloucestershire, Cheltenham
    Alice, 4, Scholar born Gloucestershire, Lydney
    (Plus a niece)

    Not your typical family really, and they clearly moved around a great deal.

    I'm slightly nervous you'll tell me it's the wrong family. This Henry is a Labourer 10 years later in 1881, which is what the 1891 shows for the husband of Helena. Quite why he should have been recorded as a butcher on marriage, I'm not sure. (Out of interest does the certificate give the grooms father as William, and what occupation does it give, please ?)

    Sorry, I didn't mean this to be as long!

    Alan

  8. #38
    nancyt
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    Hi,
    just a quickie as I'm about to catch a train. Yes this is the right family I have a fair bit of info on William Robert and his marrige to Martha, soldiers daughter, in 1843 in Swansea [welsh connections again]. One of his younger sons became a professional soldier too.
    Henry Roberts marrige cert gives the grooms father as William Robert Ashfield army pensioner, and Helena's/ Ellen's as Archibald Price also army pensioner!
    I'm away for a few days time to ponder on this some more .Thanks again to you all for the contributions. Much appreciated .
    nancyt

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