Girls Boarding School

[Alan Welsford]

Hi Nancy,

I hope I'm not appearing like I expect to find in a few hours more than you have done over several years.

I'm not very hopeful of turning anything up, but do like the challenging ones. Plus the locations interest me - I lived in Brighton for a while, and my wife's mother lived in Hay-on-Wye. (She lived in the former court house, the television occupying the spot where murderers had been sentenced, but I've no idea where the workhouse must have been).

You've given a very comprehensive answer, and I understand your interest is to try and track Helena's early life, as you know about her after marriage.

Whatever the circumstances, I'm a little dubious of her being in a 'seminary' in Brighton by the 1871 census, as she would on the face of it been only about 5 years old. I don't know if these places were continual attendance, or had what we would now call terms. The 1871 census was taken April 2nd, which is the kind of time that pupils might be sent "home" for an Easter break, (but I haven't checked when Easter fell in 1871.) That said, one clearly can see some establishments with relatively small numbers of pupils present, so clearly some were operating as schools on census day.

I'm still not completely surprised you can't turn her up in Brighton.

Your information that she was London born sounds reasonable, but as I said there already seem to be more different Helena Prices appearing in censuses, with London births, than there are GRO registrations to cover them, (without adding your Helena to the pile). Obviously searching for a London birth is much harder than someone from somewhere small.

I'm sorry if the question has been answered already - I may have missed it. We can obviously see her mother once institutionalised. Have you been able to reliably find her before that, particularly in 1871 and 1881. I'm just thinking that location of Elizabeth might give some clues in locating Helena.

Best wishes

Alan

[nancyt]

Hello again Allen ,
I have only the Abergavenny Asylum records to go on as to the whereabouts of Elizabeth before 1893. Records state she came from Hay workhouse, where she had been for 6 years, after falling into a fire in her own home, and being badly burned.There is an Elizabeth Price on the 1891 Hay workhouse records, but it says she is 48. The Abergavenny records say she was 40 on admittance in 1893. I can only think this has to be the same person as it is the only Elizabeth Price in the workhouse record for that time. I expect things like ages could be very easily entered incorrectly by the census officers, or by the workhouse master. The more I find out about her the tragic her life seems to have been. I have been granted permission to search the Talgarth asylum records , which I am going down to do in April. The dates may come under the 100 year ruling being from 1903 after her transfer from Abergavenny to after 1919 when my mother was taken to see her.
By the way the Hay workhouse was 273 St,Marys road. As I do not have a birth record for Helena it is very difficult to trace anything of her early life. Heaven knows what happened to Elizabeth after the birth of Helena she was probably taken from her and fostered with someone, there seem to be no way of knowing.
nancyt

[Alan Welsford]

I have only the Abergavenny Asylum records to go on as to the whereabouts of Elizabeth before 1893. Records state she came from Hay workhouse, where she had been for 6 years, after falling into a fire in her own home, and being badly burned. There is an Elizabeth Price on the 1891 Hay workhouse records, but it says she is 48.

Whilst I'd agree that 48 is the most likely age for the Elizabeth Price in Hay Workhouse in 1891, I'd say it's by no means guaranteed.

The last digit is heavily obliterated by an enumerator mark, and although it looks like an 8, it's not much like an 8 elsewhere on the page. [Edit: See Next Post]

On the other hand, if the workhouse records are correct, and she was only 40 in 1893, (which implies an 1853 birth), then if Helena's census ages are also correct, (and she was born about 1866), Elizabeth would have become a mother at round about 13.

That's not impossible of course, but assuming her family home was still in Wales, it would seem quite unusual for her to be working so far from home at such a young age.

The Abergavenny records say she was 40 on admittance in 1893. I can only think this has to be the same person as it is the only Elizabeth Price in the workhouse record for that time.

Well the 1901 census does indeed show a 48 year old Elizabeth Price, Single, Ret. Charwoman, Born Hay, Breconshire (Class: RG13; Piece: 4930; Folio: 32; Page: 27), so that is 100% consistent with her admission details. (No doubt about the indicated age this time).

I expect things like ages could be very easily entered incorrectly by the census officers, or by the workhouse master.

True, but if it really is the same person in 1891 and 1901 census, aged 48 in each, then 10 years is a lot to lose.

It doesn't make looking for her in earlier years very easy, if she may have been born about 1843, or maybe 1853.

By the way the Hay workhouse was 273 St,Marys road.

Yes thanks. I have looked on the workhouses site, (I don't know why I didn't before).
It's now housing.
https://users.ox.ac.uk/~peter/workhouse/Hay/Hay.shtml

As I do not have a birth record for Helena it is very difficult to trace anything of her early life. Heaven knows what happened to Elizabeth after the birth of Helena she was probably taken from her and fostered with someone, there seem to be no way of knowing.

Yes, I think it may prove remarkably hard to find either mother or daughter any earlier than you currently have them.

Elizabeth Price is obviously a very common name in Wales, and we can't be sure of her birth year. She may not have been born in Hay - that may just have been a convenience thing in the Hay workhouse, for cases when they didn't know, and couldn't be bothered to find out.

I'm not sure we have firm evidence that Helena was called Helena before her marriage, (when the name wasn't used). Also London is a fairly non-specific birth place, and again may not be accurate. And we don't have an age until she marries, so even her year of birth may be in question.

I know young girls had illegitimate children at 13, (if the Asylum dates are right), but the circumstances where it might happen to a Wales born girl living and working in London are clearly rather more unusual. And then the whole thing of Helena been supported through an education in Brighton.

It's a fascinating story, but without some more solid dates or locations, I'm afraid I can't see how it's going to be unlocked.

I wonder if anybody else can thing of further approaches you might try...

Alan

[Alan Welsford]

Looking again at the 1891 census record for Hay Workhouse, I'm not sure it's possible to say anything certain about Elizabeth Price's age.

Once he gets into the "Inmates" the enumerator appears to have put not just one, but two marks over the top of the ages. One runs top left to bottom right, the other top right to bottom left. On Elizabeth Price one of the marks is particularly heavy, but both digits of the age are struck through by these marks.

What has been taken as the diagonal stroke of a '4' when arriving at '48' looks like one of these marks.

I could even convince myself that what's hidden underneath is '38', (i.e. consistent with the 1901).

I'd welcome other opinions.

It's Class: RG12; Piece: 4580; Folio 37; Page 38

[Jane M]

Sorry guys, I haven't had time at the computer today to dig into all this information. Just as a reminder, I did find this birth registration & posted it on page 1 of this thread. I think it looks quite tempting but I'll try & rule her out (or otherwise) tomorrow. Helena H. Price. June Quarter 1866, Marylebone (1a 483)
For what it's worth, I think Elizabeth Price was born about 1843.
I shall get my spade out & start digging tomorrow

Jane

[nancyt]

Hi Alan
do you know how often the kellys directories were updated, I thought to try to look for some school in a later version.If there is one in1876 or7 perhaps, as the link you gave me before, was 1867? I thought looking later may narrow the search to nearer the time Helena might have been in sschool. Ever hopeful eh!
nancyt

[Alan Welsford]

Just as a reminder, I did find this birth registration & posted it on page 1 of this thread. I think it looks quite tempting but I'll try & rule her out (or otherwise) tomorrow.

Helena H. Price. June Quarter 1866, Marylebone (1a 483)

Jane

Hi Jane,

What worries me, is that there are not many Registrations of Helena PRICEs in London at that time, and all that are there can be shown to be somebody else.

Even going two years either side of 1866, FreeBMD only gives....

Births Mar 1866
----------------------------------
Price Helena E L Chelsea 1a 215

Births Jun 1866
------------------------------------
Price Helena H Marylebone 1a 483

So only two births in total.

The 1871 census shows a 5 year old Chelsea born Helena with a William H & Elizabeth in Sussex - as the Mar 1866 birth above is in Chelsea, I think that one's accounted for. (I think William must remarry, because I think Helena is the same one who is with William H and Agnes H in 1891)

The 1881 census shows, (I can't find them in 1871), a 14 year old Helena born Middlesex, C of London, daughter of Thomas & Letitia. This is who I think the "Helena H" birth in Jun Qtr 1866 in Marylebone is.

I thought we has a further problem that Ancestry shows another candidate, in 1891, recorded as aged 29, being daughter of a William and Kate. However on looking at the image, and comparing to an earlier census it's a bad transcription - she is in fact only 21. We can ignore her.

If we look even wider, this one at first looked appealing, particularly as it has the second name Elizabeth, which is also used by Nancy's Helena on her marriage.

Births Jun 1869
--------------------------------------------
Price Helena Elizabeth Shoreditch 1c 137

But again it's easy to find the family she belongs to. She appears in 1871 as Helena E Price, in Shoreditch with parents William & Elizabeth.

So I think every possible birth registration anywhere near London is used up by Helenas that can clearly be found in censuses.

I therefore think it's highly likely that...

a) She was not registered as Helena PRICE
or
b) She was not born in London
or
c) She was not born when her marriage record and later censuses suggest
or
d) Her birth went unregistered
or
e) More than one of a) to d) applies.

I think we are probably getting hung up on the fore-name Helena. Just because she used this after marriage, doesn't convince me she was always known as that, (or at least I'm not convinced she was registered as that).

Alan

[Alan Welsford]

Hi Alan
do you know how often the kellys directories were updated, I thought to try to look for some school in a later version.If there is one in1876 or7 perhaps, as the link you gave me before, was 1867? I thought looking later may narrow the search to nearer the time Helena might have been in sschool. Ever hopeful eh!
nancyt

Hi Nancy,

I'm the wrong person to ask, I'm afraid. I have very little knowledge of what trade directories existed, and when published.

However a quick Google reveals that the Historical Directories site has the Post Office directory for Sussex for 1878.

https://www.historicaldirectories.org (I can't make the link go straight to it, so you'll need to look for it.)

I'm not sure it will help much, but I can see at least a couple of seminaries in Brighton.

Mrs Susan Mills at 19 Bloomsbury Place
and
Mrs Mary Sharp at 35 Ditchling Rise

There are also (at least) girls schools called St Joseph's and St Margaret's.

I'm not quite sure what you can do with information. Even if you can find these establishments in a census, It doesn't look like Helena will be there, as she doesn't show up indexed as being in Brighton at all.

I suspect I'm not helping a lot

Alan

[Jane M]

I see you've been VERY busy, Alan I've looked through the censuses trying to find either Elizabeth or Helena/Ellen but absolutely nothing which gives a positive identification
I only found this in 1851 which might be the young Elizabeth. I have very little knowledge of Welsh geography so don't know if Hay is in the vicinity.

HO107/2489/531/28 Workhouse Brecon St. David, Breconshire

Margaret Price unm 40 House servant b. Can't read this
Elizabeth Price 8 b. ditto
William Price 4 b. ditto

I did think it strange that Helena should give her name as Ellen Elizabeth Price on her marriage certificate but use the name Helena on the census. I would have thought it would have been the other way round if Ellen is a shortened form of Helena

Jane

[Alan Welsford]

Nancy,

Do you have any information whatsover that positively confirms that Helena was using that first name before she married, please ?

Is it possible she only started using that name after marriage ?

Alan