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  1. #11
    Zantarel
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    Hi! Yes that is the guy, though I'm fairly sure that he didn't sing in the concerts in 1774, but will go back and check my sources on that. Also, he was one of 12 siblings, not 7, most of which were musically trained and had long careers as musicians. I'm not convinced that he joined the ship in 1778 (I think he joined earlier), but hopefully the records will help me clear that up!

  2. #12
    thewideeyedowl
    Guest

    Default The National Archives

    Hi again, Zantarel...

    Still cannot find anything that specifically links HMS Thunderer (second incarnation) and Samuel Linley. But TNA have a lot of documents that relate to the Thunderer of this time, e.g captain's logs. A quick search on TNA produced these 118 hits: https://discovery.nationalarchives.go...=1770&_ed=1779. The problem, though, is that this stuff has not yet been digitised and so you would need to go to Kew to read it for your researches - and if you do not live reasonably near, that will not be feasible. Alternatively, you could contact TNA for a quote for sending you some copies, but that is likely to be very expensive.

    I have also found out that in 1776 the Thunderer was involved in the Battle of Lake Champlain in the American Revolutionary war. Might Samuel Linley have been on the ship then? That battle could be something else to investigate.

    Well, I'll leave you with those ideas now. Off to roost.

    Owl

  3. #13
    thewideeyedowl
    Guest

    Default Musical Memoirs by William Thomas Parke

    You may have come across this book? Samuel Linley features on pp204/205. The info given is broadly similar to what you already have - Samuel is the second son and a talented oboist. At the suggestion of his father's friend Captain Walsingham he joined the Thunderer briefly; after one sailing, he went home on leave to London, where he died of a malignant fever at the age of 19.

    I found that on Google Books, as a free ebook - but cannot find it again. Grrhhhh. Don't know what happened, but it was there!

    Before finding the book, I chanced upon a useful site called Three Decks, which is assembling info about old naval sailing ships. It has this on the Thunderer: https://threedecks.org/index.php?disp...ow_ship&id=311.

    Can you make any headway from either of those leads? (And v v v sorry that I just cannot get back to the google book. Perhaps you will have more luck.)

    Owl

  4. #14
    Zantarel
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    Hey!

    So the book you found was: Musical Memoirs: Comprising an Account of the General State of Music in England, from ... 1784, to the Year 1830 by William Thomas Parke. I did a quick search on google books for Linley and Walsingham and that was one of the first hits Thanks! I have read sections of the memoir for another project so now I'll go and look through it all properly!

    The site is really interesting and will definitely earn a place in a footnote! Thanks that's really helpful!

  5. #15
    thewideeyedowl
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    Glad that was useful - had wondered whether it was a mirage as I couldn't find it again!

    It looks as if your research project is really about Samuel Linley, and perhaps the other members of this very musical family, rather than about HMS Thunderer. The relevant naval archives will be at TNA (as mentioned by previous posters in this thread).

    You have not disclosed the exact sources for the original info you posted, but it looks as if you had already investigated some of the suggestions (?). A few points:

    1 The book by William Thomas Parke was written about 50 years after the death of Samuel Linley. What were Parke's sources? (There could be an element of 'Chinese whispers' in the way info was passed down.
    2 If Samuel joined the Thunderer as a midshipman, more or less at the invitation of the captain - because the captain knew daddy - then I think it unlikely that you will find Samuel's name on a muster roll. It looks as if he might have been a dilettante 'one voyage' midshipman, but I do not know. Only guessing.
    3 You say that you believe that Samuel was one of about twelve siblings but varying articles often refer only to seven. Well, have you tried to count them/account for them by tracing the children born to Thomas and his wife? You could trawl through Family Search and FreeReg for this.
    4 A death of note would have been reported in a newspaper, so I suggest you try to find Linleys through the British Newspaper Archive. Unfortunately, it is a subscription site but the newspapers are also available through Find My Past, another subscription site -(sorry) - but often available for free at a local library.

    I'm intrigued to know what you can find out about Samuel, so please keep us posted.

    Owl

  6. #16
    Zantarel
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    Hey!

    Yes, you're right, I'm working on the family and have to do a bit of research about the HMS thunderer because Samuel was on the ship.

    1) Parke was close friends with the Linley family so it is possible that the bits about the Linleys were first hand knowledge.
    2) the interesting thing here is that the Linleys were a music family = e.g they were tradesmen in the music business and so were considered low on the social ladder. Given their background, the father shouldn't have known a captain and shouldn't have been able to get his son on board as a midshipman which was a relatively respected place. They were not members of the peerage or gentry and this is at the heart of my project.
    3) there were 12 siblings yes. A few died early in life and they are rarely counted. People who have said there were 7 were only counting those who lived to be classed as a young adult - 12/14 years of age. I have done a full family tree of the family.
    4) While a death of note would have been printed, as I have said, this would not have been a death of note because they were not gentrified in any way. Interestingly, Thomas (brother) did have a note in the newspaper when he died, but I suspect that was because he was so popular in the music scene and so well known. Whereas Samuel would not have been that well known, and as a member of the standard society, he wouldn't have warranted a notification.

    I'll definitely keep you posted

  7. #17
    thewideeyedowl
    Guest

    Default Linley family

    Good morning, Zantarel...

    I think you might be able to find some useful,stuff in newspapers - remember they are newspapers. The death of the eldest son, Thomas, was probably reported because he drowned in a boating accident on a lake (?) - or something like that. (Can't quite remember. Sorry.) That is news.

    I also think that with a burgeoning middle class seeking to refine themselves in Georgian England, folk involved in music would be well positioned to 'climb', eg supplying musical instruments, giving music lessons, perhaps being called in to entertain at a gathering. So, surely, music could really get them somewhere?

    Re Parke knowing the family - sure, the info he got may well have been first-hand, but that does not necessarily make it correct. People mis-remember and families often have their own 'official' version of what happened.

    Have you tried old directories? Many are available for free on a Univ of Leicester site.

    If the research is really about the Linleys, you could try posting a brand-new thread - possibly in General History, or The Georgian Period, or Actors and Artistes, or Occupations. (Unfortunately, we don't seem to have a forum dedicated to Musicians.).

    Another thought: have you tried researching Captain Walsingham? Run a first search in TNA's catalogue.

    Because this thread is about HMS Thunderer it will get limited viewing, because it will be perceived to be a very niche interest. If you start a thread for the family, you should link to this one so that everyone can get as full a picture as possible. That way you will make progress.

    Must swoop off now.

    Keep us posted.

    Owl

  8. #18
    Name well known on Brit-Gen
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Cheshire UK
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    4,863

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    I have read this thread and now I understand it.

    This family moved in the ‘right’ circles to allow Captain Walsingham to invite young Samuel on board Thunderer

    I can find references to Thos LINLEY snr being likened to Mozart!
    https://www.madamegilflurt.com/2014/0...ley-elder.html

    Samuel LINLEY's funeral was 6 December 1778 in London
    https://www.dulwichpicturegallery.org...samuel-linley/

    The family were in a position whereby they could afford to have portraits painted by Gainsborough circa 1774
    Chester Chronicle 30 August 1799
    Biographical Sketch
    When Mr Garrick resolved to retire form the management of that theatre which his genius hasd raised into a very valuable property Mr (RS)Sheridan in conjunction Mr ( Thos) LINLEY with Dr Ford embarked in the purchase of it
    A daughter Elizabeth married RH Richard Brinsley SHERIDAN son of Thomas SHERIDAN she is desc as the daughter of the late respectable & ingenious composer

    Another daughter on her demise Maria LINLEY by Captain THOMPSON 23 Sept 1784 Bath Chronicle

    Thomas LINLEY died circa 1796 article ' Lines for a tablet' by 2 daughters Mrs Sheridan & Mrs Tickell Norfolk Chronicle 8 Oct 1796

    Thomas LINLEY jnr died 5 August 1778 on a lake at the Duke of Ancaster's estate

  9. #19
    Zantarel
    Guest

    Default

    Evening Owl ... Well whilst you are right that music could get them somewhere, it's difficult because they were still considered to have a 'trade' and therefore be lower on the social class. The only gentry/nobility who were allowed to 'get their hands dirty' were for trades like: Navy, Lawyer, Doctor and Clergy ... everything else was frowned up on!

    I will look into uni of leics though and see if I can find anything and might open up a new thread. I started this one mainly because I wanted to find out where I could information on the ship, as that is the focus of my research at the moment!
    Thanks for all your help though!

  10. #20
    Zantarel
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    Default

    Hi geneius

    You're pretty much all right on the basic history side of things. A few things though: Tom Junior was likened to Mozart because they were childhood friends that met in Italy and continued to correspond via letter. Tom senior (whom your link discusses) was never likened to Mozart though there are striking similarities between him and Leopold...

    I don't think that the Linleys actually paid Gainsborough for the portrait: Before Gainsborough moved to London and became really really famous, it was known that he traded music lessons for painting lessons/painting (especially with William Jackson for instance) and I think that this was the case with the Linleys.

    Can you just clarify what you mean by: "Another daughter on her demise Maria LINLEY by Captain THOMPSON 23 Sept 1784 Bath Chronicle"? Maria didn't marry and had no children - at least she was never married in any of the possible churches and never had any children baptised/christened and none of her children are mention in the wills like Elizabeth's children are which would be expected if she had had children. I'll have a look at that date in the Bath Chronicle, but if you can expand that would be great.

    Thanks

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