JosephPerry, Out of Wedlock Child?

[Deb525]

Hi everyone,
Recently through a lot of research I believe Ive been able to narrow down my ancestors birthdate and parents, however it has led me to one record stating that Joseph Perry was born to a single woman in Birmingham. This is the first illegitimate child I've found in my direct line and I'm unsure what I can do next, I cant find anything on the mother but I don't have much to go on. Would there be any parish records which deal with illegitimate children so perhaps I can find out about his mother and even his father?
The details were;
Joseph Perry Born 13 August 1844, Baptised 5th June 1846
Mother Ann Perry Single Woman, Bell Barn Rd St Phillips Parish Birmingham
(on his death certificate in 1923 his mother is unknown but his father is a Henry Perry Hotelkeeper, I cant find any such Henry! )

Hopefully someone can tell me if its possible to get around this brick wall of mine,
Many thanks

[Lesley Robertson]

You have to be careful with paternal names on marriage & death certs from illegitimate children. In many cases, they're correct, but some people seem to have made a name up rather than admit they didn't know. Death certs can be especially dodgy, depending on the generation that gave the information. At his age, it was possibly a grandchild? My Great Uncle got his own Mother's maiden name wrong on his father's death cert - she died fairly young and he probably only knew her as "Mother" or something similar.

I don't do much research with English records, but if this was Scotland I'd be looking for the baptismal registers. It depends on the Minister, but many were enthusiastic about making single ladies with expanding waistlines tell all. What about his marriage cert? Does it give the same father as the death cert?

[Peter Goodey]

Before commenting, I think I would like to know more about the chain of evidence leading to this particular birth & baptism.

[Wilkes_ml]

A agree, that death certificates are very dodgy, age and parents details are often not accurate, or completely wrong, and with marriage certificates illegitimate people would often change a father's surname to match their own birth surname (that of their own & mother's maiden name).

I agree that information from the marriage certificate (age, place of residence of groom) and census information you have for Joseph PERRY after his marriage would be useful to us to look at the problem, and work through the problem with known information.

It also looks as though you have a baptism entry, but do you actually have a birth certificate as well? If not, then it may be worth getting.

Also, many illegitimate children's parents married after the child (or children) were born, so worth looking at any Ann PERRY marriages in the years after Joseph's birth and look to see if any married a Henry with the right occupation.

[Wilkes_ml]

I am assuming he died in Australia, so if that is correct, when did he emigrate and who went with him?

[Wendy L]

My own parental grandfather had an illegitimate brother who kept his mother's maiden surname even after she married my great grandfather. When he in turn got married a father's name was given on the marriage certificate but it is impossible to trace his father.
A maternal illegitimate girl, her mother had an affair with a married man. There was however a story in the family that I was able to sort out and when I sent for this girl's birth certificate the clue was in her christain name, even though no father was given. The father did however after his wife, (very many years after this girl was born) died marry her mother.
Do you think the clue may be his father was named Joseph?

[Deb525]

Thankyou all so much for your help, for some reason none of the notifications came though so I was unaware of all your help!
I have tried getting birth certificates but due to the sheer number of Joseph Perry's in the area the GRO several times has returned saying they were unable to find the one I was asking for (the Ann as mother one).
The findings which led me to Ann as a possibility were;
I narrowed down 5 Josephs born between 1835 and 1847, one died and i found marriage records for two others (The parents were: Thomas & Eliz, Joseph & Eliz and for the one who died John & Mary Ann)
The other two were a Joseph an iron founder/rouge maker & Eliz and the single woman Ann.
Whilst the mother Elizabeth died Joseph lived for decade afterwards and was most definitely alive when my Joseph got married having also witnessed his other childs marriage around the same time close by. Whilst of course I cant discount a major family disruption and the fact that Joseph the iron founders son Joseph disappears, circumstantially it seems that Ann is the best fit.
Hopefully this makes sense and I havent left this thread too late!

PS He travelled out with his Family and wife Eliza Hall to New Zealand in 1874
Also I only have census returns for him in 1861 (as an apprentice) and in 1871
Many thanks to you all!

[geneius]

He travelled out with his Family and wife Eliza Hall to New Zealand in 1874

Marriage is on line
12 August 1862 Aston St Peter & St Paul ( Birmingham)
Joseph PERRY aged 22 bachelor cordwainer states father NOT KNOWN
Eliza HALL sp aged 22 father James HALL plasterer
both of Bordesley & signed
witnesses Thomas TONEY & Harriett TONEY...connected to Eliza? Yes just spotted a baptism in the name of HALL

1861 RG9 2135 12 28 as an apprentice boot maker with Bernard WITHERS

1871 census RG103135 92 2 Eliza b 1840 Coventry plus a lot of children Joseph / Rosanna / Albert / Julia etal...

St Philip Birmingham
baptised 13 August 1846
Born 13 August 1844

Joseph PERRY s/o Ann PERRY of Bell Barn Road single woman

[Deb525]

Hi Everyone,
I've been searching for my 2x great grandfathers parents for a while and now I believe he was illegitimate, the info I have so far is;
Joseph Perry
b.13 August 1844 Bell Barn Rd Birmingham
bapt.5 Jun 1846 St Phillips to Ann Perry, dau. of Benjamin (Ann youngest siblings were also baptised that day)
In 1847 in St Phillips Ann married Job Smith and had 6 other children, in 1851 Joseph is listed as Joseph Smith (that was a tricky find!)
By 1861 he is 17 and is an apprentice shoe maker,
My question is, would there be any record of Joseph's father in Parish record or even though it may be a long shot could Job Smith be the real father? (Despite the long period between Joseph's birth and his mothers marriage) I don't know much about the records or illegitimacy in the era.

If luckily there are some records to be searched three hints to his father may be;
His middle name according to family was James
and on his death certificate his father was listed as Henry Perry a Hotelkeeper
His sons names were:
Joseph Henry, Albert Edward, Henry Ernest (Harry),William Benjamin

Many thanks in Advance!

[Sue Mackay]

Have added your latest post to your original thread as requested.