Ponter Creamer marriage ... can't find it

[Ultramum]

Having a trip up a sideline and have spent the last week or so coming back to this problem:


Alfred Philip Creamer (son of Alfred James Kreamer and Mary Jane Hooper) was born in 1889 in Stepney, London, England. He died on 28 May 1967 in Stepney, London, England.

The C and the K seem interchangeable in Alfred James' generation and then just continue as C down through some of the children

According to a stack of trees on A* he married Eleanor Ponter in 1917 on 6th June ... only source seems to be England & Wales, Marriage Index: 1916-2005 so no idea where anyone got the date from.

When I search from Alfred Philip Creamer on A* I get a link to the marriage of Eleanor Ponter but her spouse comes up as George Smith (!) in Q2 of 1917 in Stepney ... checked the image and it isn’t a transcription error. It also comes up as Ponter with spouse Smith on BMD but not when you search Smith with spouse Ponter!

So I thought perhaps she married George and he went back off to the war, got killed and she married Alfred later that year so searched for a Smith/Creamer marriage (using phonetic search) ... no joy

Thought I would prove or disprove the union by searching for Creamer children with maiden name of Ponter ... Loads of children on BMD with Creamer surname and Ponter mother maiden name! None for Smith/Ponter.

Ponter and Creamer had the following children: the first in Mile End and the others all Stepney or Limehouse. Eleanor was living with her sister in Mile End in 1911 so that ties in ... the first one is born on 24th July 1917 according to the unsourced trees and is registered as Creamer with Ponter as maiden name which would not really tie in with my imagined war death for George Smith!

Q3 1917
Eleanor E
Q4 1919
Alfred P
Q2 1921
William T
Q2 1923
Jane M
Q3 1925
Elizabeth S
Q2 1927
John R
Q3 1929
Rose M
Q1 1932
Thomas H

I just cannot find the marriage for Alfred and Eleanor on either free BMD or A* ... beginning to think he married her under an alias of George Smith!

Any other avenues I can travel to unravel this? ... it’s only a sideline and I don’t think it’s worth the cost of a certificate, especially as the only one I could order would be the Smith/Ponter one and I know that’s not the one I need.



Forgot to say ... I found a death for Eleanor in Stepney in Q2 of 1843 .. as Eleanor Creamer!

[pottoka]

I have looked for the marriage on fmp and come up with nothing. Putting in Alfred Philip Creamer, with variations, between 1911 and 1920 gives one result: Philip A Cramer who married Mary O'Connor in Woolwich in 1912. Extending the search only gives another Philip A. Cramer and a Philip A. Kramer, neither of which married Eleanor.

And Eleanor married George Smith ...

I can't find any trace of Alfred Philip on the 1911 Census either. There is a George Smith born in Stepney in 1890 (so probably 1889) but he's married to Ethel and has been for 9 years, and they have 5 children, so it's a pretty good cover, if that's what it is.

I found all the births you have - weird, isn't it?

[pottoka]

I forgot to say, although you will probably know, that you can't trust public trees on Ancestry. One person puts in a date they think they have found somewhere (but with no record back up) and almost instantly, all the other trees with that person in will suddenly sprout the same information.

There are a load of public trees on there which have one of my great-great-grandmothers dying in a year when no-one of that name died. It makes me so cross, because if they could just be bothered to look at the death register, they'd see that they were wrong, but they don't. And so the error is compounded, like the date of the Creamer/Ponter marriage, although at least you know they did get together because of the children.

[Nicolina]

I tried something different and came up with a death for a 52 year old Eleanor CREAMER June 1943 Stepney Vol 1c Page 135. Estimated year of birth 1891. So one did exist.

[Nicolina]

the 1891 Census for 121, Pennington Street, St George In The East (RG12 piece 287 folio 35 page 64) has a 2 month old Eleanor PONTER with parents John R. born North Chapel, Sussex abt. 1863 and Eliz S. born St George in the East abt. 1864
Siblings were Henry T. born abt. 1883 & Thomas born abt. 1889.

In 1901 the family were at 16, London Street, Ratcliff (RG13 piece 318 folio 110 page 3) together with more kids:
John born abt. 1894 & Emma born abt. 1896

In 1911 Eleanor and her sister Emma are living with their brother Henry T. and his wife Miria at 10 Edinboro Road (RG78PN57 RD21 SD2 ED29 SN110)

[Jellylegs]

I think that Alfred joined the Army in 1906. There is an army service record on Ancestry for Alfred Creamer (East Sussex Regiment) who gives his parents' names as Alfred and Polly, with younger siblings named Reuben, William Thomas and something George (can't read it properly). The siblings' names tie in with some of those on the 1901 census. The address of the chap that was his referee is the same street that he was living in in 1901, so think it probably is your Alfred.

In 1911, I think he can be found at RG14 PN34979 SN9999 (overseas military), where he is a Private with the East Sussex Regiment.

According to his service record, he deserted on 19.04.1916 (well, I think that's what it says, though I'm sure it also says he was transferred to the Army Reserve in 1913). So, maybe he did marry Eleanor Ponter under the name of George Smith, not wanting to be found, but had the children registered as Creamer.

[pottoka]

I've finally found the Kreamer family in 1911 through an address search.

4 Great Hermitage St, London

KREAMER, Mary - Head - Widow - 46 - No Occupation - St Georges London
KREAMER, William - Son - 15 - Newspaper Boy - St Georges London
KREAMER, Thomas - Son - 13 - School - St Georges London
KREAMER, Daniel - Son - 3 - St Georges London
KREAMER, Margaret - Daughter - 20 - Tailors Shop By Hand - St Georges London
KREAMER, Edith - Daughter - 12 - School - St Georges London
KREAMER, Jane - Daughter - 6 - St Georges London
(the women were kept in their place, weren't they?)

Ref: RG14PN1524 RG78PN53 RD19 SD1 ED26 SN260 Copyright TNA London

Unfortunately, Alfred has left home. Of all the Alfred Creamers on the 1911 Census, the only possibility seems to be this one:

L COMPANY NORTH EAST SURREY REGIMENT, SHWEBO, BURMA
Military details: Private 2/ East Surrey Regt

CREAMER, Alfred - Unmarried - 23 - Nil - Middlesex

Ref: RG14PN34979 RD641 SD4 ED3 SN9999 Copyright TNA London

This could mean that the Creamer/Ponter marriage took place abroad, which would be a good reason for not finding it in the England & Wales BMDs.

[pottoka]

I think that Alfred joined the Army in 1906.

He signed up to the Royal Fusiliers on May 2nd 1906 and was given 76 days of drilling, then he was transferred to the East Sussex Regiment on 19th September 1906; his character was good.

He had a fresh complexion, blue eyes, dark brown hair and measured 5' 5" (he might have still been growing; he wasn't yet 18). He had a vaccination on "the left" and a mole below his left collar bone.

He was a Roman Catholic.

According to his service record, he deserted on 19.04.1916 (well, I think that's what it says, though I'm sure it also says he was transferred to the Army Reserve in 1913). So, maybe he did marry Eleanor Ponter under the name of George Smith, not wanting to be found, but had the children registered as Creamer.

The records on fmp don't go that far, so I can't confirm a desertion. There was an episode of Who do you think you are last year where the chap's grandfather had deserted, and it seemed that it was fairly easy to get away with it. Big Brother wasn't watching in those days!

[Ultramum]

Thanks for all your beavering away! Glad it wasn't just me who couldn't find it! I have a suspicion that he may have married under the assumed name ... Possibly the marriage certificate would give father's info to match his father but with a Smith tagged on the end ... That one will have to go on the 'when I win the lottery' list ... just gonna have to wait for the 1921 census and see what it says about how long they have been married. Will toddle off to have a look at those military records now.

A* trees ... Don't get me started! My great grandfather is married to his son's wife on one of them ... That's why I was checking out the info in the first place .... Very handy to get hints to research yourself but that's as far as it goes. I keep mine private and only share with a few others who are researching the same lines - we also share discoveries like one chap missing since 1841 who I quite accidentally came across in 1911!

[Nicolina]

I keep mine private and only share with a few others who are researching the same lines - we also share discoveries like one chap missing since 1841 who I quite accidentally came across in 1911!

that's a long time for some-one to be down at the pub. (family joke for anyone missing from a Census)