John Woodcock Grounds, born Rainford

[lawsue]

I have death cert for John Woodcock Grounds, died 1883, age 49 father Edward Woodcock, mother Elizabeth Grounds. Making him born appr 1833-34 or even 35
Stated on cert is fathers occupation as lawyer.
The only Edward Grounds, Lawyer that I could come up with is second son and third child of Thomas Woodcock and Elizabeth Holme. This Thomas Woodcock was founder with Ralph Thicknesse of Wigan Bank. The bank passing down through various sons but not Edward.
I have another Grounds researcher in Manchester who has not been able to find any trace of a birth for John Woodcock Grounds, mother Elizabeth Grounds. Even by leaving out the Woodcock. We don't believe they ever married, Edward later married Margaret Fraser in 1838 and i think I may have found Elizabeth Grounds as Elizabeth Sephton in Durham, age 64 in 1871. I have found John Grounds age 7 on 1841 census at Rainford and another, same age at Upholland. I believe the Rainford one could be ours. My census information is from FamilySearch. Everything else I have been able to trace including the fact that John was a draper and sold all his stock by auction in 1865, coming to Australia with his family in 1867 on the "Red Jacket" a fully laden mail clipper.
I would really love to solve the mystery of his birth if someone out there can do a bit of delving for me.

Thanks
Sue

[Coromandel]

Hi Sue

On some message boards it says John married Rachel Renshaw before emigrating: is that correct? There is a possible marriage in the Bury district in Q3 1858, with John Grounds and Rachel Renshaw appearing on the same page. Lancs BMDs confirms that they married one another, and gives the location: Holcombe, Emmanuel (registers held at Bury register office).

Do you have the marriage certificate?

[lawsue]

Hi Coromandel,
My you rise early!!! I don't have marriage cert however he did marry Rachel at the Parochial Church Holcolme on 30th September 1858. Is that the same church? No father entered against John but Rachel's parents were James Renshaw and Isabel Whitworth. This info from my fellow in Manchester who is himself a committed Grounds researcher. So I'm hoping that someone else may have a few more ideas on how to find the birth. Both John and Rachel were my husbands g,grandparents. I'm guessing that John was born somewhere near or around Rainford. Children of John and Rachel were James Edward (James after Rachels father and Edward after John's father)? born 1859, Ellis Morris b 1861 and Mary Elizabeth all born before emigrating. 2 more born in Australia. Lots of activity of the family in Accrington. I have no idea of place names and their relationship to each other. Upholland, Wigan, Accrington, Durham, St Helens, Rainford???????? Please sort me out!!!!!

Thanks
Sue

[Coromandel]

I have no idea of place names and their relationship to each other. Upholland, Wigan, Accrington, Durham, St Helens, Rainford???????? Please sort me out!!!!!

This map shows Lancashire parishes and registration districts in 1937:

http://www.
lancashire.gov.uk/environment/oldmap/lcc1929/lcc1929.jpg

The registration districts may have changed since your husband's family was there, but it at least gives an idea of the relative positions of the various places (except Durham, which isn't in Lancashire! See later).

• Rainford and St Helens are in the Preston registration district (marked 'T' on the map)
• Upholland and Wigan in the Ince registration district ('N')
• Holcombe itself isn't marked on the above map, but is near Ramsbottom (in the Heywood registration district, Q)
• Accrington is in the Haslingden district ('K')

Also have a browse around on the Lancashire pages of GENUKI. Pages for individual parishes can be accessed from here:

http://www.
genuki.org.uk/big/eng/LAN/Parishes.html

I see, for example, that the page for Holcombe has a link to a photograph of Emmanuel church.

'Durham' can refer to a whole county or to a city. From the 1871 census for Elizabeth Sephton, she is in Holy Trinity parish, Stockton registration district, so this must be County Durham. I think this Stockton is Stockton-on-Tees. For a map see

http://www.
visionofbritain.org.uk/place/place_page.jsp?p_id=867

[Coromandel]

Rainford and St Helens are in the Preston registration district (marked 'T' on the map)

Sorry, typo: that should be Prescot. (Preston is a completely different place.)

[peanut]

Hi

Just a thought on Johns marriage certificate dose it say John W. Grounds or John Woodcock Grounds, when I took a look at the entry it just says John Grounds, I am not sure of the facts someone may put me right on this but shouldn't it give his full name on the actual certificate

Peanut

[lawsue]

Thanks Peanut, but I have no certificate, just the results of lots of work by another Grounds researcher. Between us we are trying to get an answer to John's parentage. I believe, now, that because of his illegitamacy that he was never baptised. So my search results are going to be purely speculation, I know that shouldn't be the road to take. Until it is proven one way or the other, I have a suspicion that the Elizabeth Grounds,(born Rainford 1807) mentioned as his mother was the widow of a John Grounds who was buried in 1832 in Rainford, IGI RG4-0988. They had no other children named John. My John came along 1834-35. She married George Sephton in Rainford in 1838 then moved to Stockton-on- Tees. It seems that my John Woodcock Grounds was not poorly off, as he had a drapers business until 1865. So I'm also guessing that he was supported as a child by his father, Edward Woodcock. So much seems to fit, BUT.
Thanks everyone.
Sue

[peanut]

Hi

John Grounds Burial 24 March 1832 All Saints Rainford age 73 abode Rainford is this the same one that you have, he is a bit old, if my maths is right he was age 48 when his wife was born in 1807 add 20 year's or more till the marriage makes him 68/9... is he the right John

Peanut

Peanut