Lost in 1871

[olliecat]

Which still leaves me looking for my James and Mary in 1871?

Have a look here Audrey, see if it's them.

1871: RG10; Piece: 2205; Folio: 16; Page: 8

Surname transcribed as MANKIN on Ancestry. So just type in James MANKIN and put Monkleigh in the keyword box (tick exact.) I'll transcribe the household when I've woken up properly and had another look.

P.S. His wife Mary was born in Langtree.

[Pam Downes]

So, as I understand it there are two men named James Martin who married a Mary in Devon.

Yes.

They can be distinguished by their children and by Mary's place of birth.

Yes.

My Mary was NOT born in Newton St. Petrock and we've found them all correctly in 1851 and 1861 with various children who we are using as cross reference

Yes.

There is a daughter Fanny but the wrong family have a grand-daughter Fanny?

Both families allegedly have a daughter called Fanny. It gets a little confusing because they are of a similar age in the census.
It is therefore extremely important that you note the census years.
The Fanny for your family (Mary born Langtree) is 8 in 1861.

The Fanny in the other family (Mary born Newton St Petrock) is 9 in 1871, and 19 in 1881. It would be necessary to find either a birth registration or a baptism to confirm if she is a daughter or granddaughter to the (not yours) James and Mary.

The boarder, Frederick Mounce, also belongs to the wrong family?

No. He belongs to your family. See post #13. Same household, but on the next page. (Census rule number one - always look on the next page to make sure you're got all the members of the household. )

Which still leaves me looking for my James and Mary in 1871?

Yes, And in 1881.

Which leads me to the question - How do you know for absolute certainty that your James and Mary are the right ones? Which person is your link back to them?
I ask, because usually you find people from working backwards through the census, and if you can't find them in 1881, and 1871, then how can you say the Mary born in Langtree is correct?

Pam

[Pam Downes]

Have a look here Audrey, see if it's them.

1871: RG10; Piece: 2205; Folio: 16; Page: 8

Surname transcribed as MANKIN on Ancestry. So just type in James MANKIN and put Monkleigh in the keyword box (tick exact.) I'll transcribe the household when I've woken up properly and had another look.

P.S. His wife Mary was born in Langtree.

But transcribed by Ancestry as Langton.



So, Olliecat, your next challenge, should you care to accept it, is to find them in 1881?

P.S. Son Thomas, aged 4 in the 1861 census, is highly likely to be found next door on the same page in the 1871 census.

Pam

[AudreyF]

Pam,

All noted and lined up for proper looking this evening. My link to James and Mary Martin is their daughter - Fanny.

Fanny Martin born 15th March 1853 in The Bideford Union RD. Home address given as Ley (possibly/probably), Monkleigh. Father James Martin, a labourer. Mother Mary Martin, formerly Mounce. Mary registered the birth.

I think I'm OK with this information to be sure.

Thank you, thank you.

Audrey

[AudreyF]

OK, got the census where they are Mankin. James has become a railway labourer and they've got a lodger. Another daughter seems to have appeared too!

Audrey

[olliecat]

I'll transcribe the household when I've woken up properly and had another look.

Since Pam has done such a great job of transcribing the two different MARTIN families for us, here is the 1871 census for completeness...

1871: RG10; Piece: 2205; Folio: 16; Page: 8
Ley Higher, Monkleigh
MARTIN, James, head, 49 (b.1822), raily- lab, Frithelstock
MARTIN, Mary, wife, 50 (b. 1821), glover, Langtree
MARTIN, Jane, dau, 16, Monkleigh
MARTIN, Mary, dau, 9, Monkleigh
MARTIN, Louisa, dau, 7, Monkleigh
SANDERS, John, lodger, 28, railway lab, Bridport Dorset
//
Next door we have a Cooper family and listed with them is...
MARTIN Thomas serv, 14, ag lab indoors, Monkleigh

Note the home address of Ley Higher and Ley was also on your Fanny's birth certificate (although that was back in 1853.) By the way Audrey there are two new daughters in the census.

So, Olliecat, your next challenge, should you care to accept it, is to find them in 1881?

Oh dear - more searching - hmm! I thought Audrey said in her first post she had the family in 1881, but did this include James and Mary? Noticed this death record....

Death Jun 1872 Bideford 5B 359
MARTIN, Mary
Age: 50
Est. dob: 1822

[AudreyF]

Olliecat,

Nope, never got as far as 1881 .................... nor deaths ...........

Audrey

[olliecat]

Nope, never got as far as 1881 .................... nor deaths ...........

James MARTIN is proving more difficult. Can't find a death in the Bideford registration district but there is a death in the Barnstaple district (which is not so far away.) Did any of his children move into this district; perhaps he went to stay with one of them.

Death Sep 1878 Barnstaple 5B 299
MARTIN, James
Age: 58
Est. dob.: 1820

Note: I believe the OTHER James Martin also died in the Barnstaple district but that was in 1906 (it looks like he was staying with his daughter Elizabeth in 1901 in this district.)

[AudreyF]

Olliecat,

Not sure about a Barnstaple connection - I haven't come across any family there .......... yet. If there railway records on line they might show something. Presumably Devon is Great Western.

Audrey

[GraemeDavis]

Interested to come across this thread. Thomas Martin (1857) son of James Martin and Mary Mounce was my great-grandfather.

The census returns are indeed confusing, though the thread above seems to have sorted them out. Of the eight children, one (Richard) dii. The eldest Robert is remembered as having run away to see at the age of ten. His subsequent career is as a seaman. The other six all moved to Deptford (London), though William Henry quickly moved again to Streatham. The five in Deptford all married and all had large families - and all remembered their Devon roots.

My g-grandfather Thomas spoke of his cousin Sir William Reardon Smith - actually his cousin by marriage, married to Ellen Hamlyn, daughter of Elizabeth Martin (1824). He also spoke of his cousins the Stonemans of Locksley House. His aunt Catherine Martin (1811) married John Stoneman and Locksley House in Appledore was indeed the Stoneman home. These lines confirm that the parents of James Martin are Robert Martin and Margaret Lemon.

I've had less success in tracking down the deaths of James and Mary Martin, partly because the list of GRO certificates I would like to have a look at is very long indeed and I'm reluctant to order the speculative ones. There's a plausible death for Mary Martin in 1872 (mentioned above). More puzzling is James Martin - however his sister Mary (1819) was living at Combe Martin, in Barnstaple RD, and I'm inclined to think he probably is the James Martin d 1878 mentioned above.

There are plenty of puzzles. There's mention about to Frederick Mounce on the 1861 census living with the Martin family. Who is he and what happened to him? I can't pick him up on later censuses or find a marriage or death. His birth is 1852 - another certificate I haven't bought. Is he perhaps son of Ann Mounce, sister of Mary? (in 1856 she married John Ware, though their first son who appears on the census as William Ware was born 1853).

The Mounce family is curiously problematic for such an unusual surname. I've started collecting all North Devon Mounce records and I feel I'm getting some sort of outline, but very little detail or human interest. Mary Mounce's father was Richard Mounce - I'm aware of NINE North Devon Richard Mounces plus one Richard Mounce Mitchell. This line is Richard Mounce (1803) who married Sally/Sarah, though I can't track down the marriage and therefore a maiden name. Richard is son of another Richard (1782, Langtree). I think I've checked obvious sources - GRO, census, IGI - does anyone know of some less obvious North Devon records that include the name Mounce?

incidentally James Mounce (1834) brother of Mary also moved to Deptford. I'm not sure whether he was the first one to move and his Martin nephews and nieces followed, or whether it was the other way round.

A feature of this family is that they were all in touch with one another and that they talked about their family. As late as the 1980s children of the brothers and sisters who had moved to Deptford were in touch with the children or grandchildren of Robert (the brother who had run away to see) then in Plymouth. I'm not sure quite when contact with the Stoneman and Reardon Smith families was lost.