Royal Marines -required length of Service

[Waitabit]

Having just been through the mill at the Archives only to be told I must go fetch at Kew or get a readers ticket etc, I wonder can anyone who knows tell me what length of service was required for a RMLI who was discharged in 1912 as service completed before re-enlisting almost immediately.? (Am wondering when he first joined)

I do believe I found him in 1891 census a private from 'Kingsland" at Walmer.Kent Barracks & School.

Chap I'm looking for born in Hackney or Middlesex from different census. 1881 only one confirming his parents & sibs. He may have been at sea 1901-1911. Am unsure.

[olliecat]

I wonder can anyone who knows tell me what length of service was required for a RMLI who was discharged in 1912 as service completed before re-enlisting almost immediately.?

Well, according to the "Kings Regulations & Admiralty Instructions - 1913"

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SECTION VI. DISCHARGES AND RE-ENGAGEMENTS.

"1170. When discharged.- Marines will be discharged at the end of 12 years' service from the age of 18, if at headquarters ; and those who re-engage for a further period of 9 years will, at the end of 21 years' service from the age of 18, be entitled to their discharge with pensions, provided they have forfeited no time."

http://
freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~pbtyc/KR&AI/Royal_Marines.html

It was also possible to sign up for further service after 21 years. Anyway, you will need to read the rest of that section and the separate section further down headed '1197. Long Service Pensions'.

Be aware though that around the middle of the 19th century, the first engagement period for continuous service men was 10 years and they could re-engage for a futher 5 years plus 5 again or re-engage for 7 years plus 3. There were other engagement and re-engagement periods.

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I must say, the whole volume looks like an interesting read, but it's late so I'll probably carry on with it tomorrow. In fact, if you are interested in naval history, then click on the index link twice and there's enough there to keep you occupied for a considerable amount of time.

I almost feel like signing up as a marine. By the way, who are you looking for?

[Waitabit]

Thank you olliecat for reply, saw it- had to vacate without answer. The 12 /10 yr stint was in my reckoning,

William John Marshall b. 1872 Dec. (1873) Hackney . Witness at his Sisters marriage in 1898.
Married as batchelor in Sep. 1911 Medway.

Indirectly involved in mystery situation of 1911 census
Died, heart attack 1916 aboard s.s Laurentic.
Awaiting response from persons 'suspected to be related to mystery involvement.

sounds whacko don't it? if emails have no replies, I'm left with help from where-ever I can glean it yes?
There are two Boys who need a background, & Family line, at least for me. (not mentioned here-in)

Have reached the stage where I must assure myself of Family lines so far inscripted & leave paper trail, before some organisation makes my C.D.s redundant & useless.

Hold hard olliecat, don't sign on until you know the facts. Been there done the bit. elsewhere, but the Marines feature largely in my own Family.

[sandiep]

Have you tried logging on to The National Archives and searching they have a number of records for William John Marshall's and how to search for Royal Marines.

[Waitabit]

I wish I had your talent for Archive searching Sandiep, I tried(see 1st ppost) & again today butgot no-where, years I needed were ot yet digitised, other areas offer dates covered as 1889-1896 but don't go past 1870s. My mental health too precious to mess about in there any longer.

Didn't get anywhere near his name coming up.

Lessons (short) accepted cheerfully & with thanks.

[olliecat]

what length of service was required for a RMLI who was discharged in 1912 as service completed before re-enlisting almost immediately.

I've just had a look at William John Marshall's Royal Marine Medal Roll record. Just to clarify, the information on this indicates that his service branch was RMLI and he was discharged on 19/7/1912 for reason of length of service. He then enrolled into the RFR (Royal Fleet Reserve) on 30/7/1912. The RFR was a part-time force of volunteers who were not in active service but who could be recalled and deployed when needed (i.e. WW1.) The medal roll indicates that he was indeed called up and deployed for WW1; he received a number of medals and he died on the HMS "Laurentic" on the 7 Sep 1916 of heart failure. His service number was CH/6175(RFR/A/590) and his rank was private.

More on the RFR and the enrollment criteria can be found here if you are interested..

http://
freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~pbtyc/RFR/RFR.html

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As for searching for service records at the TNA, Wendy, have you seen their guide to Royal Marines Registers of Service here? They have placed a search link on the page so you can easily search for service records and entering William John Marshall brings up two records, see here, (click my link twice if you don't get any results and just get the catalogue.)

Result 1

Name Marshall, William John
Register Number: 19707
Division: Royal Marine Light Infantry: Plymouth Division
When Enlisted/Date of Enlistment: 17 July 1917
Date 28 March 1900
Catalogue reference ADM 159/165
Piece 19636 - 20182

Result 2

Name Marshall, William John
Register Number: 6175
Division: Royal Marine Light Infantry: Chatham Division
When Enlisted/Date of Enlistment: 18 February 1891
Date 18 March 1842
Catalogue reference ADM 159/45
Piece 5762 - 6426

The first one has an enlistment date of 17 July 1917, but your chap died in 1916. The second has an enlistment date of 1891 but the other date is 1842 (???) Can't be his birth date surely as this would be an enlistment age of 49. Quite like the fact that for this second one, if he enlisted in 1891 and served a full (pensionable) 21 years, that would mean a discharge date of around 1912. Hmm! Wendy, I don't suppose you have an age at death for the William John MARHSALL who died in 1916 do you?

NOTE: I'll get back to you on this but I think service records for those who were recalled during WW1 from the RFR, rather than being held at the TNA, may have been held by the MOD and then subsequently transferred to the Fleet Air Arm museum.

[olliecat]

Further to the above, information from the 'Royal Naval Division Casualties of The Great War' for William John MARSHALL has this additional information...

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Fleet Air Arm Museum papers missing
b.Islington, London 18/3/1872
Wife, Emma A., 12 Best Town, Chatham
Listed in deaths of RM Pensioners Globe & Laurel (RM Journal) Oct. 1917 p.191 (Pension No.16938).
1914 Star issued to Legatee, W. Biss Esq. 8/10/19.

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Will mull on this additional information (particularly the missing papers part) over a nice cup of tea. Back later.

Edit: I thought 'Best Town' rang a bell, as it was mentioned on another thread of yours Wendy. Have posted the link in case it helps with this query.

[olliecat]

Fleet Air Arm Museum papers missing
b.Islington, London 18/3/1872
...

Information from the Fleet Air Arm Museum...

ROYAL MARINES PAPERS
...
Inevitably there are some gaps where records are (or appear to be) missing. Many of these are probably as-yet-unidentified inter-Division, or inter-Service transfers. It is known, however, that the papers of many men who had completed their twelve-year limited engagement and were recalled during WW1 from the Royal Fleet Reserve (RFR) are often absent. The whereabouts of these RFR papers is unknown.

www.
fleetairarm.com/royal-navy-royal-marines-services-documents.aspx

Although the museum does not undertake research type queries, you could ask them to check the Service/Register Number for your William John MARSHALL and confirm that his records are not held by them. See the bottom section of the page. At the same time, I would ask them to clarify if their records are duplicates of those held by the National Archives or if they uniquely hold all papers for RMLI servicemen who were recalled from the RFR during WW1.

[Waitabit]

Wow!,Olliecat,

That's some info. Thank you. Some I had, some I couldn't get.

#6- I clicked your link as it didn't come up for me on names search. Found I'd had that info page some time back when 1911 census came out & I learned for sure he was marriage partner of Emma Amelia Martin.

the date therin of 1848 put me off yet the Reg.no. 6175 was same as that on his medal papers. His B-in-Law recieved one of fhis medals.

I hadn't picked up on his Fleetairarm term but had read up on that service a whileback related to someone else. Not retaiined as other things came up.

There were several men of same name in same service around the same time, I met many!
This chap was born 1872 Bapt.4th Apr. 1873. appears on 1881 census. two conflicting birth dates of 18 mch & 7 Dec.

Listed in deaths of RM Pensioners Globe & Laurel (RM Journal) Oct. 1917 p.191 (Pension No.16938).

I didn't have this, Had looked but figured he wasn't around for a pension,-unsure if Wife would have got one.

Cannot find her death with certainty, one in 1916 Dartford,- no proof- (Cousin doubts this.) All connected to following post

All I had otherwise was his residence at 12 BestTown Chatham via directories
1913/14, 1914/15, 1916 Marshall- William John..A kind Lady from City Ark filled in the gaps

Thanks for the extra links.

Will continue with reasons for quest in following post.
Bless you Olliecat.

[olliecat]

the date therin of 1848 put me off yet the Reg.no. 6175 was same as that on his medal papers. His B-in-Law recieved one of fhis medals.

In which case, in your shoes I would go for that record. The cost is only 3.50 and once paid for, you can download the PDF directly.