SMITH family, St Helens

[Copan80]

Hi,

Im not having any luck in finding any information on John SMITH.

The information I do have is that he was born about 1846, he was a farm labourer (I think), he had a child named John Richard SMITH in 1866, im assuming it was his first born, and he was born in Moss Bank, St Helens. The family did not seem to move about too much in later years (until my grandparents), but im assuming he was born in the ST Helens area.

I know with a name like John Smith it could be very difficult, but I would love any help at all to find out as much information as possible.

Thanks in advance,

Tegan

[olliecat]

Im not having any luck in finding any information on John SMITH.

The information I do have is that he was born about 1846, he was a farm labourer (I think), he had a child named John Richard SMITH in 1866, im assuming it was his first born, and he was born in Moss Bank, St Helens.

Hello Tegan. A stab at finding your John in the census, but I don't know if this is the right family...

1871: Piece: 3862; Folio: 29; Page: 13 (crown copyright, care of the TNA)
Moss Bank, Windle, Lancashire
SMITH, John, head, 25, labourer in chemical works, Rainhill Lancs
SMITH, Esther, wife, 26, Windle Lancs
SMITH, John Rich, son, 4, Windle
SMITH, Margaret Jane, dau, 6, Windle
SMITH, Mary Elizabeth, dau, 2, Windle

A few questions for you. Have you found a birth certificate for John Richard SMITH? Did he have any siblings? Have you found any of your SMITH family in the census? With a name like Smith, we need to extract every last morsel of information from you.

[Copan80]

Thanks olliecat for finding that information.

In answer to your questions: No, I dont have a birth certificate for John Richrad SMITH, Im not sure about any siblings but I do have information about his wife Sarah HOUGHTON, who he married on the 20th Nov 1887 at PARISH CHURCH IN PARISH OF ST MARKS, ST HELENS, and they had three children Peter DOB unknown, James DOB Unknown and John DOB: 6th Feb 1892 (this John would be my great grandfather) he spent most of his life living at Bleak Hill Farmhouse, Windle, where my grandfather Fredrick SMITH was born on the 31st may 1931, I do have my grandfathers Birth Certificate. I have looked at the census' for John SMITH SR, but im having no luck finding him with limited information. I hope that helps any.

Thanks again, I apperciate any help.

Tegan

[olliecat]

I dont have a birth certificate for John Richrad SMITH, ...his wife Sarah HOUGHTON, ... and they had three children Peter DOB unknown, James DOB Unknown and John DOB: 6th Feb 1892

Census details for John Richard SMITH, wife Sarah and children...

1901: RG13; Piece: 3516; Folio: 131; Page: 19 (crown copyright, care of the TNA)
Kiln Lane, Eccleston, Lancashire
SMITH, John R, head, 34, carter on farm, Windle
SMITH, Sarah, wife, 33, Windle
SMITH, Peter, son, 12, Windle
SMITH, John, son, 9. Eccleston
SMITH, Peter, dau, 4. Eccleston
NOTE: yes the name of the daughter does look like Peter.

Other census references for this family.

1891: RG12; Piece: 3017; Folio: 7; Page: 9
J Richard SMITH, wife Sarah and son Peter. Address is Watery Lane Cottages, Eccleston.

1911: RG14/22739 SN72
John Richard SMITH, wife Sarah, children Peter, John and another child James Pearson SMITH, age 8.
Address is Mill Brook Cottages, Eccleston.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

In all cases, John Richard SMITH consistently states he was born in Windle abt. 1867.

I have looked at the census' for John SMITH SR, but im having no luck finding him with limited information.

On searching the 1871 and 1881 census again, looking for a John Richard SMITH born abt. 1867 in Windle, with a father called John, the only one I can find that fits is the family I posted for you in post #2.

[olliecat]

1871: Piece: 3862; Folio: 29; Page: 13 (crown copyright, care of the TNA)
Moss Bank, Windle, Lancashire
SMITH, John, head, 25, labourer in chemical works, Rainhill Lancs
SMITH, Esther, wife, 26, Windle Lancs
SMITH, John Rich, son, 4, Windle
SMITH, Margaret Jane, dau, 6, Windle
SMITH, Mary Elizabeth, dau, 2, Windle

Here they are again in the 1881 census...

1881: RG11; Piece: 3731; Folio: 39; Page: 19
Windle, Lancashire
SMITH, John, head, 35, farm lab, Rainhill, Lancs
SMITH, Esther, wife, 36, Windle
SMITH, Richard, son, 14, glass house lab, Windle
SMITH, Mary E., dau, 12, Windle
SMITH, Peter 9, son, Windle
SMITH, Henry 7, son, Windle

The one hiccough is that there does not appear to be a birth registration for a John Richard SMITH in 1867 +/-1 in the Prescot registration district (which covers Windle.) I don’t think John Richard Smith was illegitimate as John SMITH snr may have married in 1865…

Marriages Prescot Sep 1865 8B 1022
SMITH, John
WINSTANLEY, Esther

There are of course plenty of John SMITH registrations in the Prescot district, so one possibility is that he was registered without a middle name.

[Copan80]

The one hiccough is that there does not appear to be a birth registration for a John Richard SMITH in 1867 +/-1 in the Prescot registration district (which covers Windle.) I don’t think John Richard Smith was illegitimate as John SMITH snr may have married in 1865…

It does seem to appear that John Richard likes to change his name often, so I guess it could be assumed that his father started it off by removing the Richard in his birth registration.

Marriages Prescot Sep 1865 8B 1022
SMITH, John
WINSTANLEY, Esther

Thanks olliecat I had only just started searching for Esthers Maiden name I will start looking at her life a little bit, just to see what I can find.

Census details for John Richard SMITH, wife Sarah and children...

1901: RG13; Piece: 3516; Folio: 131; Page: 19 (crown copyright, care of the TNA)
Kiln Lane, Eccleston, Lancashire
SMITH, John R, head, 34, carter on farm, Windle
SMITH, Sarah, wife, 33, Windle
SMITH, Peter, son, 12, Windle
SMITH, John, son, 9. Eccleston
SMITH, Peter, dau, 4. Eccleston
NOTE: yes the name of the daughter does look like Peter.

I had found that reference too but have been unable at the moment to find a death notice, but I will continue to look, its fascinated me as to what did happened to her.

[Copan80]

Sorry people, I still havent got the hang of posting on here, but I do apperciate all the effort you have out in to finding all of the information out olliecat, but can you tell me where you are getting it from, Im at the moment getting it from ancestry.co.uk.

[RoyW]

Hi Copan80,

I am not sure if this site will be of any help to you. If you locate a record that seems to fit then if you drill down first trough the name then to the Grave details it lists all the internments for that specific plot, you maybe able to match other family members.

http://www.sthelens.gov.uk/a-z-servi...neral-records/

Royw