can't find death

[valg]

hi sorry took awhile to reply the hannah in ash sounds promising... in 1861 John was living in sandwich kent with his son Fredrick my great grandfather Mark was living with his grand parents thomas and mary Philpott : Class: RG 9; Piece: 540; Folio: 55; Page: 12. in 1878 John married Ester Wright and in 1881 his on the census as living in Davington kent which is where they stayed until his death in 1918.
But Hannah seems to just vanished i believe i was told that she was in an insitution but dont know if this is correct or why ahe was there if it is true.
thanks for your help evonne

John is in Sandwich with Edward..not Frederick ( who wasnt brn till 1863) interesting looking at his status on the original many times and comparing to others on page I am sure it says UN for unmarried?? RG 9; Piece: 540; Folio: 55; Page: 12
Yet they have Fredrick in 1863? Do you have Fredericks birth certificate??

Edward Fred and Mark are with the grandparents in 81 RG10; Piece: 964; Folio: 117; Page: 26


Looking between 1861 and 1881 for deaths the only 1 i can still find in the 1866 death noted previously, may be worth investing in and having a look...

cant find the son William?

[Pam Downes]

Well, the plot certainly thickens.

I would agree with valg that in 1861 John Philpott does seems to be 'unmarried', though that could simply be enumerator error. Also in the household is son Edward, plus Mary Wanstall, aged 26, and William Wanstall, aged 1. William is listed as 'son', and strictly speaking that should be his relationship to the head of the household, i.e. John, but often when the household schedules were completed the relationship to the person immediately above them was given. In which case the inference would be that William is the son of Mary, and not necessarily the son of John.
RG9/540 f 56 p 13 for Mary and William, with John and Edward Philpott on the previous page, RG9/540 f 55 p 12.

Come 1871 John says he's married, with a wife called Mary (aged only 32 but her birthplace agrees with that of Mary Wanstall in the 1861 census), and he has a son called William Philpott, aged 11 born Sandwich (again, a match with William Wanstall in 1861) and a daughter Mary J, aged 8 born Sandwich.
The GRO Index has a birth registration for a Mary Jane Philpott WANSTALL, March quarter 1863, Eastry registration district; Sandwich being in Eastry district.
Living Ramsgate, RG10/995 f 64 p 2
I can't find a marriage between John Philpot(t) and Mary Wanstall 1861-1878.

I think that in 1881 William Wanstall/Philpott is once again a Wanstall and is living with his maternal grandmother Sarah Wanstall in Sandwich St Clement. RG11/994 f 12 p 17.
I think this is Mary Wanstall in 1851, HO107/1631 f 115 p 6 (living in Sandwich) with her mother Sarah and sister Eliza, though Eliza's age is a little suspect in the 1881 census compared to previous ones.

Mark Philpott, born c 1858, is in 1861 living with his grandparents Thomas and Mary Philpott. RG9/544 f 15 p 23, with Mark actually on p24.

I know the age of death of the death registration for Hannah Philpott in 1866 doesn't 'fit', but the details on a death certificate are only as accurate as the informant's knowledge of the deceased. I think that certificate has to be purchased, just to see who the informant was, and if this could possibly be Hannah Philpott nee Spicer.

Pam

[valg]

Well, the plot certainly thickens.

I would agree with valg that in 1861 John Philpott does seems to be 'unmarried', though that could simply be enumerator error. Also in the household is son Edward, plus Mary Wanstall, aged 26, and William Wanstall, aged 1. William is listed as 'son', and strictly speaking that should be his relationship to the head of the household, i.e. John, but often when the household schedules were completed the relationship to the person immediately above them was given. In which case the inference would be that William is the son of Mary, and not necessarily the son of John.
RG9/540 f 56 p 13 for Mary and William, with John and Edward Philpott on the previous page, RG9/540 f 55 p 12.

Come 1871 John says he's married, with a wife called Mary (aged only 32 but her birthplace agrees with that of Mary Wanstall in the 1861 census), and he has a son called William Philpott, aged 11 born Sandwich (again, a match with William Wanstall in 1861) and a daughter Mary J, aged 8 born Sandwich.
The GRO Index has a birth registration for a Mary Jane Philpott WANSTALL, March quarter 1863, Eastry registration district; Sandwich being in Eastry district.
Living Ramsgate, RG10/995 f 64 p 2
I can't find a marriage between John Philpot(t) and Mary Wanstall 1861-1878.

I think that in 1881 William Wanstall/Philpott is once again a Wanstall and is living with his maternal grandmother Sarah Wanstall in Sandwich St Clement. RG11/994 f 12 p 17.
I think this is Mary Wanstall in 1851, HO107/1631 f 115 p 6 (living in Sandwich) with her mother Sarah and sister Eliza, though Eliza's age is a little suspect in the 1881 census compared to previous ones.

Mark Philpott, born c 1858, is in 1861 living with his grandparents Thomas and Mary Philpott. RG9/544 f 15 p 23, with Mark actually on p24.

I know the age of death of the death registration for Hannah Philpott in 1866 doesn't 'fit', but the details on a death certificate are only as accurate as the informant's knowledge of the deceased. I think that certificate has to be purchased, just to see who the informant was, and if this could possibly be Hannah Philpott nee Spicer.

Pam

This is becoming quite a novel!! So with this info...who does Frederick belong to? If he was born 1863 and John was off with Mary from 1861...quite a mystery here. Why is everybody elses family history so much more interesting than mine!

[valg]

Can I also ask where evonne got the info re the children of John and Hannah esp if in fact William is actually the son of Mary Wanstall..Edward is with John in 1861 so we can safely assume he is John and Hannahs child..Mark is evonnes G Grandad so assume she knows he belongs to John and Hannah..do we have a birth cert??
Could Frederick actually be a cousin and belong to one of the Grandparents other children? ( noted a daughter Sarah aged 38 on 71 census living at home, could Frederick belong to her?))
He is the only 1 not noted as born Worth/Sandwich, his birth is noted as Harbledown..
Has the info re the children come solely from checking census records???
Are Edward and Mark the only children of John and Hannah???

[Pam Downes]

Can I also ask where evonne got the info re the children of John and Hannah esp if in fact William is actually the son of Mary Wanstall..Edward is with John in 1861 so we can safely assume he is John and Hannahs child..Mark is evonnes G Grandad so assume she knows he belongs to John and Hannah..do we have a birth cert??
Could Frederick actually be a cousin and belong to one of the Grandparents other children? ( noted a daughter Sarah aged 38 on 71 census living at home, could Frederick belong to her?))
He is the only 1 not noted as born Worth/Sandwich, his birth is noted as Harbledown..
Has the info re the children come solely from checking census records???
Are Edward and Mark the only children of John and Hannah???

There's some very good thinking there, valg.
Frederick being the son of one of John's siblings, and therefore merely a cousin to Edward and Mark would make very good sense.
I'm fairly certain that Frederick married Jane Ann Bonnick in the parish church of All Saints Battle Bridge, Islington, on 8 Oct 1893.
(Marriage on Ancestry's London marriages database.)
He gives his father as Thomas Philpott, farmer, deceased. That exactly fits his grandfather and he wouldn't be the first person to give his grandfather's name as his father. I have tried (without success) to find a Thomas as the son of Thomas and Mary, Fred's grandparents.

And dumbo me earlier suggested the evonne looked for parish registers at a local LDS FHC - completing forgetting that she lives in Kent and therefore probably has relatively easy access to Kent Records Office. (I'm beginning to think I'm more of a hinderance than a help with this query! )

Pam

[evonne]

i think i will be ordering a few birth an death certs to try and unravel this story i have found Hannah and Johns marriage 18th oct 1852 he married John Philpott Oct-Nov-Dec 1877 Faversham Kent
Esther Wright Oct-Nov-Dec 1877 Faversham Kent i have no knowledge of him being with a mary so i need to follow this up thank you for all your help will keep you all posted if i find the info
thanks evonne

[valg]

There's some very good thinking there, valg.
Frederick being the son of one of John's siblings, and therefore merely a cousin to Edward and Mark would make very good sense.
I'm fairly certain that Frederick married Jane Ann Bonnick in the parish church of All Saints Battle Bridge, Islington, on 8 Oct 1893.
(Marriage on Ancestry's London marriages database.)
He gives his father as Thomas Philpott, farmer, deceased. That exactly fits his grandfather and he wouldn't be the first person to give his grandfather's name as his father. I have tried (without success) to find a Thomas as the son of Thomas and Mary, Fred's grandparents.

And dumbo me earlier suggested the evonne looked for parish registers at a local LDS FHC - completing forgetting that she lives in Kent and therefore probably has relatively easy access to Kent Records Office. (I'm beginning to think I'm more of a hinderance than a help with this query! )

Pam

Think we may have gone as far as possible without certificates to substantuate who belongs to who...interesting family..hope evonne comes back and lets us know the outcome cheers val

[valg]

Cheers Evonne please let us know what you find on the certificates...

[valg]

This seems a likely candidate for the baptism of William...badly transcribed i do think...
William George Edward Wamtale- parents-Mary-no father.
28 Dec 1859

Walmer,​ Kent,​ England

Entry on 61 census as Wanstall.

Walmer in the Eastry Reg district as is Sandwich...

WANSTALL William George Edward Eastry 2a 671 December 1859

so we can pretty safely conclude William is not the son of Hannah and John.

[evonne]

Thanks everyone i have now ordered fred william and edwards birth certs to try an unravel this puzzle so its just a matter of waiting to see what they tell us