St Mary's Catholic Church, Clapham.

[DocDAve]

PROBLEM : to find records of the couple married as JOHN HALLORAN AND JOHANNA DOWNES , GRO 24 Nov 1846 St George Southwark. John Halloran signs with a cross, is a labourer and father is Richard Halloran, a labourer. Address given Norfolk St, Southwark Bridge Rd. Johanna Downes address Boro’ Rd, father Thomas, a farrier. Both of “full age”. The witnesses are John and Ann Cronin – my ancestors. Priest Thomas Doyle.

I have never found, in any subsequent records census or church or gro, anywhere here or abroad, a match for them as Halloran or variant.

HYPOTHESIS : that JOHN and ANN HOLLAND, born Ireland on 1851 census St George’s Southwark, Wellington St, are this couple.

SUPPORTED BY :

1. HOLLAND is a recognised anglicization of Halloran ( and variants)
2. JOHN HOLLAND appears twice in the early records for the cluster of Southwark people that I have records for. A) as witness, with Anne Downes ( poss ? Johanna) to John Cronin and Anne Downes 1.10.1836 marriage, priest Thomas Doyle, B) as godparent at baptism of Margaret Cronin 21.1.1844. No John Halloran as such in any of these earlier church records.
3. on the 1851 Census record, JOHN HOLLAND bricklayer is b. circa 1810 Ireland, wife ANN HOLLAND IS B. CIRCA 1813 Ireland with NEPHEW THOMAS DOWNES b 1832 London, baker journeyman. Ann is a known contraction of Johanna , and the couples nephew being DOWNES makes her ?nee DOWNES.


I have also a baptismal record for 1855 for Deborah Copps ( the Copps are related) and a godparent is JOHANNA DOWNES. One expert has told me that if the priest has known someone for a long time, they may record them with their maiden name.
Apart from this I can’t see them in 1861+ censuses. The Holland occ tailor mentioned in Holbourn by Mutley is interesting but my lot came from Ballyhay nr Charleville not Ballymonie.

Input to this very much appreciated – I would love to have a “closing” on this , having only just thought of the Holland Halloran connection after two years of searching.

[Mutley]

I am struggling, I will admit. So many variations and so many possibles.
There is a death for a Johanna Holland in St. George, Southwark in 1860. If she is yours then it would explain why she cannot be found after 1851.

[DocDAve]

Thankyou for pointing out the Johanna Holland death - this is worth ordering.

To make things simple, the occurence of JOHN HOLLAND in the baptismal records and on 1851 census is a perfect fit with the occurence of the name JOHN HALLORAN in the single record of the 1846 marriage, IF one can believe and accept the anglicisation and of John using this at his marriage for whatever reason but not in the other records. It is so perfect a fit really.

[Mutley]

After spending a lot of time searching I am inclined to agree with you.

If you do order the death certificate and it is your Johanna then it should say either
widow of John, labourer or wife of John, labourer.
If widow then there is a death registered in Dec 1853 of a John Holland at St. George, Southwark
If wife then there is a death registered in June 1865 of a John Holland at St. George, Southwark

If it is the latter then John should be somewhere in the area as a widower in the 1861, if not with family then perhaps as a boarder.

Good Luck

[Mutley]

There is a John Holland at Devonshire Street, Newington in 1861.
He is a widower, a general labourer and a lodger (with the Moloney family) born about 1809 but says in Cork!
RG9/336, Folio 123, Page 5
(records held by TNA, Crown copyright)

A possible if Johanna's husband is still living, though I suspect there are a few others.

[Mutley]

Not sure if you have read this from British History online
http://www.
british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=45263

Check out (I think paragraph 9) about Wellington Street. Might be worth adding to your 'perfect fit' theory.

[DocDAve]

Well, the death certificate does indeed say Johanna Holland, aged 48, died from ovarian dropsy 1860 ( exact date not to hand) and wife of John Holland, bricklayers laborer ; address in Southwark Revels Row, as they had moved on from Wellington St.

So I am pretty happy.

I agree with that John Holland seen widower on the 1861 - he is also on the 1871 and 1881 censuses and died in 1884 aged 80 in St Saviour Southwark.

Ann in the 1851 census was Johanna when married 1846 and on death in 1860. nee Downes, to be sure.

The anglicisation of Halloran to Holland is not as common as Houlihan to Holland but I see some other examples on discussion boards via ancestry.

[Mutley]

Oh well done. Great news.