1861 Census Help

[Mutley]

The only tiny clue that I can see that may help is that George states in the 1861 (if that is your George) that he was born in London.
The actual city of LONDON was very small but did include the Clerkenwell area (EC1).

If he was born in St. Pancras or any of the other surrounding areas, perhaps Islington, I believe his birthplace would then be Middlesex.
It is a tiny straw to grab at and there was a Red Lion Street just off Clerkenwell Green so St. James, Clerkenwell may well be the place to look for his baptism, that is, if you are inclined to grab at tiny straws.

[Mutley]

Another tiny straw...
There is a baptism at St. James of a George Christopher Jones on 20 Jan 1829 to George and Sarah Jones of Brown Court, Trinity Lane, Clerkenwell (I don't recognise this address so cannot help with the exact location).

Father was a Lamp Lighter.

[ewan]

That's okay Mutley, it can become confusing when you are not familiar with the history of that particular family, just thankful for help with it.

Yes the George Jones with his wife Emily is mine definitely. I have also looked around for the witnesses in the hope that they were related to George, lots of clues to be found sometimes with the witnesses.

The details for George were pretty consistent on the 2 censuses, 1861 and 1871, born in London aged 34 and 44. As I am not familiar with the London/Middlesex thing I have often wondered what part of the area was meant when it states London as the birthplace, so I go along with your statement about Clerkenwell being London.

I have found a marriage for a George Christopher Jones, St Pancras March quarter of 1851, I don't have access to London parish records but it would be interesting to see if his dad was a lamp lighter. However, finding this marriage does now rule out the George Jones baptised 20 January 1829 to George and Sarah Jones as being related to me.

There is a Jones family from the 1841 census ((HO 107/660/7 page 21) Clerkenwell Finsbury that could be my George's family - George aged 38, Sarah aged 39, George aged 13, Sarah aged 10 and Harriett aged 6 and there is also a family from the 1851 census (HO107 1519 357 57 Clerkenwell Finsbury) , George aged 43 a cab proprietor born Clerkenwell, Sarah aged 44 born Clerkenwell, Harriet aged 16 born Clerkenwell. Only problem is that on the 1841 the same family living at the same address have put a N for not born in the county, so that has thrown me.

Perhaps a baptism can be found for George, Sarah and Harriet Jones as above, if anyone can help please, to see what occupation their father was at the time of their baptism.

I have the marriage records of George Jones in 1860 and George Jones in 1857 and I must say that the 2 signatures he gave (parish record copies) are much the same indicating that they could be the same person.

Thank you
Ewan

[Mutley]

The marriage of George Christopher Jones took place on 1 Feb. Both George and Mary Ann Jones were single and of full age.
George was a Cab Driver and his father George was a Cab Master. George's address was Sidmouth Street (I think)

However, I think that eliminates him.

[Mutley]

I also wonder if it eliminates the families you have found in 1841 and 1851 seeing as the 1851 George Snr was a Cab Proprietor? I cannot find the baptisms of the two girls,

In case it pops up anywhere,
the address in the 1851 census was 5, Garnault Mews, Clerkenwell, Finsbury

The occupation of the George in 1841 was a Watch and Clock Maker. They lived at Clerkenwell Green.

[ewan]

Thank you for looking for the baptisms of a Sarah and a Harriet, I feel this is how I am going to get to the bottom of who the parents are of my George Jones.

I think you may be looking at a different 1841 census to me Mutley, it looks to me like you are looking at the family that consists of George aged 33 Sarah aged 27, Jane aged 2 and Harriett aged 10 months, Clerkenwell Green.

I have 2 families on the 1851 and 1841 living at 5, Garnault Mews, Clerkenwell, Finsbury. For 1841 the reference number is HO 107 660 7 Finsbury St James Clerkenwell, the head is George a cab proprietor on the 1841 and 1851 censuses.

Obviously I have no clear cut evidence that this family is my George's family, with George senior being a cab proprietor it makes me wonder could he have been a servant when George junior was married in 1857 (this brings me on to say that I feel confident that the marriage certificate from 1857 is the same marriage of my George in 1860 to Emily Pigden, I have had the 3 records for about 6 years now and after taking them out and dusting them down I feel sure that it is the same George getting married twice.) Hence my original question of can anyone find a George and Elizabeth Jones on the 1861 census.

I think the way forward is for me to investigate this family from the 1841 and 1851 censuses further to see if there are any clues to suggest that the George Jones in the family is the one I am looking for.

Also whilst dusting down the marriage records I found a burial record for an Elizabeth Jones aged 28 estimated birth year of 1831 at St Pancras Church in 14 July 1859. Also a record from St Pancras Workhouse of deaths and burials stating that an Elizabeth Jones aged 28 died in the insane ward, stating that she was taken on the 15 July by the husband a Mr Jones! So, this was another piece of evidence that made me think the marriage certificate from 1857 was my Georges.

Ewan

[Mutley]

Sorry Ewan, I have searched for the two girls baptisms but sadly cannot find them. I don't know if anyone else wants to try.

There are so many George Jones in that area in the 1841 census that were servants about 15 years old and not living with parents.
I lost track of all the references. There was one living with a Mary Ann Widnes, another in Bloomsbury with a John Holyman. One in one prison in Clerkenwell and another in the house of correction.

I did favour one in Saffron Hill, George Jones a 15 year old (1826) servant born in Middlesex because I also found a reference to the baptism of a Sarah in 1825 at Saffron Hill, father George an Umbrella Maker. Saffron Hill was only a couple of minutes walk from Clerkenwell Green and Red Lion Street but again nothing to take it any further. ~~sigh~~

I did see the reference to Mr Jones taking an Elizabeth from the workhouse but as it was Mr. Jones and no first name I did not mention it.

Garnault Mews, is a very possible address, it's north, halfway between Clerkenwell (St. James and the Green) and Pancras.
I cannot see a cab proprietor going to a servant, other way round perhaps but in those days a cabbie used horse drawn vehicles. He would have had the horses and the vehicles at his disposal. A Mews would fit well with that occupation but was that not the occupation of George Christopher's father?.

I feel very annoyed with myself because I would love to help you sort this out. I was born there, lived there, walked these streets as a child, that what makes it so frustrating!
i will keep digging and if I find any more I will let you know, should you have further questions regarding the area, please do ask.

[Mutley]

I think you may be looking at a different 1841 census to me Mutley, it looks to me like you are looking at the family that consists of George aged 33 Sarah aged 27, Jane aged 2 and Harriett aged 10 months, Clerkenwell Green.

You are quite right and I have forgotten what his occupation was. ~~sigh~~

[ewan]

Thanks for looking for baptisms Mutley, there is always the chance I suppose that they weren't baptised. Maybe I will post later asking for help with purely looking for baptisms, it is the fact that on the 1841 all the family are down as not being born in Middlesex but on the 1851 they quote Clerkenwell.

I have another George Jones not living with his family, further down my family tree the son of this George Jones in my early research on the 1881 I found not living with his parents but as an errand boy with another family, so years ago they did leave home at an early age than today.

Thanks also for the opinion regarding cab proprietor to servant I quite agree with that. I did wonder if the occupation George junior had in 1861 as a footman may have had any connections to cab proprietor in 1851 (George Jones senior).

Anyway I will keep chipping away at this brickwall, with a surname like Jones it is not surpising, thank you very much for your continued help with this it has been much appreciated.

Ewan

[Mutley]

Maybe I will post later asking for help with purely looking for baptisms, it is the fact that on the 1841 all the family are down as not being born in Middlesex but on the 1851 they quote Clerkenwell.
Ewan

I think that could be a good idea. If you can also link to this thread it maybe useful for the members to see this information. If you don't know how to do the link, don't worry, I shall spot it and can edit and do it for you.

The birth places given will depend on how the question was asked and then recorded in each of the two census.
Were you born in London - Yes/No. Were you born in Middlesex - Yes/No.
Where you born in this county - Yes/No. Where were you born?

They have got to be out there somewhere, we just need a JCB instead of a shovel.