Here's a puzzle. Can anyone help?

[tony vines]

I am researching a family called Jenner in the 19th century. I have traced it back to George Jenner b. 1866 in Wisborough Green, Sussex. In the 1871 census when he was 5 he seemed to be living as the son of the family of Thomas Jenner a farmer. His mother was Harriett. However in the 1881 census his father is called James Jenner although his mother is still Harriett. Their address is the same in both censuses and the siblings around in 1871 are the same but 10 years older. It seems to be the same George.

So I searched to see whether Thomas was born Thomas James or the other way around and it seems that his birth was registered solely in the name Thomas. I then looked for the marriage of a Thomas Jenner to a wife called Harriett and I found two in the same parish at around the right year. I then found that someone called James Jenner married a Harriett and that someone called Thomas Jenner also married Harriet (different surname) and that both marriages have the same GRO reference. I did not know that two marriages by different people, even on the same day, could be given the same reference.

Can anyone throw any light on the matter please?

[Mona]

At this time, there are two marriages (therefore four people) with the same GRO reference, as there are two marriages on the same page. Perhaps Thomas and James are brothers and married at the same time, therefore marriages falling on the same page?
Earlier years have four marriages on a page.

PS. on FreeBMD there is only 3 on the page (sep 1866) Thomas JENNER; James JENNER; Harriet YOUNG.
Perhaps he was known by both names?, so listed twice, or the fourth party is missing.

[Mutley]

According to the 1881 census, William Cheesman age 81 is living with them and is the father-in-law, therefore he should be Harriett's dad.
It might be worth looking for Cheesman and Jenner marriages though there are loads of variations of Cheesman.
It is also possible that it is a second marriage for Harriet,

Have you tried chasing Harriet back?

[judyg]

Hi Tony,

Having looked at the 1871 and 1881 census entries for this family I am wondering if it could be as simple as an enumerator’s error.

As you say the details for Thomas in 1871 and James in 1881 are the same. In the 1881 census there is a William Chesmore recorded as father-in-law. There is a marriage for Thomas Jenner to Harriet Chesmore
In 1865 – Petworth Registration District - Vol 2b Page 457.

Thomas is traceable in previous census in the Petworth Reg Dist but no sign of a James nor is there a James with his birth recorded as Wisborough Green.

James/Thomas & Harriet do not seem to be around for the 1891 Census but there is a 28 year old William Chesmore recorded as a lodger at Gunshot.

Cheers
Judyg

[Pam Downes]

I am researching a family called Jenner in the 19th century. I have traced it back to George Jenner b. 1866 in Wisborough Green, Sussex. In the 1871 census when he was 5 he seemed to be living as the son of the family of Thomas Jenner a farmer. His mother was Harriett. However in the 1881 census his father is called James Jenner although his mother is still Harriett. Their address is the same in both censuses and the siblings around in 1871 are the same but 10 years older. It seems to be the same George.

So I searched to see whether Thomas was born Thomas James or the other way around and it seems that his birth was registered solely in the name Thomas. I then looked for the marriage of a Thomas Jenner to a wife called Harriett and I found two in the same parish at around the right year. I then found that someone called James Jenner married a Harriett and that someone called Thomas Jenner also married Harriet (different surname) and that both marriages have the same GRO reference. I did not know that two marriages by different people, even on the same day, could be given the same reference.

Can anyone throw any light on the matter please?

When you say 'same parish' do you mean that you have looked at the parish registers and found not only two Thomas Jenners but also a James Jenner marrying in that parish?
If so, can you give the parish (just in case it helps with people's thought processes ), the names of the brides, and other possible helpful stuff such as ages of the brides and grooms, and names and occupations of fathers.

Pam
(who's last in the queue as usual, so my post might not be relevant!)

[Pam Downes]

Hi Tony,

Having looked at the 1871 and 1881 census entries for this family I am wondering if it could be as simple as an enumerator’s error. Judyg

Having now looked at the 1871 and 1881 census images, here's another vote for enumerator error.
Although there is a son Thomas, the enumerator could easily have misread the father's name as James by mistake. (Think of how similar the names are, even though they begin with different letters.)

Pam

[susan-y]

As suggested, perhaps Thomas and James are brothers who both married Harriets..... ( Harriet Young and Harriet Cheeseman) Looking at previous census there are several brothers, close in age, who are Thomas and James Jenner.
OR
Perhaps the enumerator made an error...... I remember seeing one made for one of the families I am searching. Everyone's names were correct, except the head was listed with his brother's name. I put it down to the fact the enumerator perhaps knew the family and got the brothers mixed up....next census was correct again.

[tony vines]

Thanks to everyone for your thoughts. I had also seen the father-in-law William Cheesman (or Chesmore) living with them and taking the modern meaning of that relationship had found the marriage of a Thomas Jenner to Harriet Chesmore which I feel fairly sure is the same family. That seems to me to be a fairly secure basis for the Jenners and the Cheesmans or Chesmores being related by marriage.

However as noted above, the other two marriages of James and Thomas Jenner are both in the adjacent parish of Horsham (lots of references to this family are recorded in Horsham) and each seems to have married Harriet Young. You have confirmed my state of ignorance that the 4 people normally recorded on the same page also have exactly the same GRO reference - I hadn't twigged that before because it's never been of concern to me.

What was so confusing here was that the Thomas and James shown in the consecutive censuses at Gunshott Farm; both shown as Head, married to Harriett and having the same children, are mirrored by what now appears to be a recording error on the possibly unrelated marriage of another man called Thomas or James to another Harriett.

I checked to see whether a Harriet Jenner had died in that period to rule out the possibility of Thomas (James) marrying twice to a woman called Harriet and couldn't find one. So unless i can find something else to explain things, I'll put it down to coincidence probably caused by a glut of Jenners in the area.

Incidentally it is mentioned above that Thomas/James has disappeared in the next ensuing census but I found Harriet listed as a widow keeping house for the remaining children at home and a death record for a Thomas Jenner a year or so before.

[tony vines]

PS

I'm sure that someone is bound to suggest getting the certificates and of course that would certainly help to prove things one way or another. However, this is unpaid research for a friend so it's not my financial call. I will of course suggest it if it concerns him.

[Pam Downes]

However as noted above, the other two marriages of James and Thomas Jenner are both in the adjacent parish of Horsham (lots of references to this family are recorded in Horsham) and each seems to have married Harriet Young.

Which brings us back to my original question of, if you saw these entries in the PR what are the details such as dates, ages of brides and grooms, and fathers' names and occupations?

And if you didn't see the entries in the PR, what exactly is your source of the information?

Pam