Robert Alfred b.1894 = Alfred Leonard Watson?

[rangerc]

Thanks malcolm99;
Apart from this photo which has just surfaced, the last time we saw RA was in the 1911 Census:

Elizabeth is living with sons Joseph Edwin and Robert Alfred and daughters Ada and Hilda at 29 Mary Street, Stanley, in Durham. Joseph is a colliery horsekeeper (below ground), Robert is a pony driver below ground. Ref: RG14/29859/78, Page 1729.

His older brother Joseph Edwin WATSON b1883 served in WWI
https://
search.ancestry.co.uk/Browse/view.aspx?dbid=1219&path=W.Wa.Wat.14439
discharged Mar 1919.

Another brother (not with the rest of the family in 1911) also served in WWI. This was Frank William WATSON b1885;
https://
search.ancestry.co.uk/Browse/view.aspx?dbid=1219&path=W.Wa.Wat.132298
Discharged Jan 1919.

Both Joseph Edwin and Frank William then emigrated to Western Australia aboard the 'Ormonde' in 1920 - to join up with another brother Henry/Harry Watson who emigrated in 1911. JE returned to England in 1921; FW died in West Aust in 1923.

I've searched (in available online records) under Robert Alfred, Alfred Robert, Robert, Alfred - no luck.

Within the family he was known as Alfred (rather than RA); brother JE was known as Edwin.

Colleen

[gilian rowland]

ROBERT ALFRED WATSON

This thread was started by Colleen, a genealogist, who was helping me with my WATSON family from Newcastle on Tyne.

Ref the first email, she attached a photo of him, known to the family as Alf. She gave all the scant information I have for him
mainly that it is thought he was in India in the 1stWW (plus see below)

Since then I have found out some information on the uniform - see below - so will leave this thread on the Military Army site
to see if anyone can progress this.

I would, presumably then transfer across to a general site as I would dearly love to find out about him. All I know is that he
was born in Newcastle December 1/4 1894. Believed he married, divorced and then remarried and possibly had a daughter Carol.
A relative thought he died in Newcastle so I found a death 25.1.1955 for a Robert Watson 50 Ayton street, Newcastle but
it's not him. My relative then thinks he died in London!

Any help gratefully received.
with thanks
Jill

On 24 January 2012 12:21, ARK Records Enquiries <[email protected]> wrote:
Our Ref: PR’11/E262

Dear Ms Rowland

Thank you for your enquiry of 20th January 2012.

On looking at the photograph that you supplied of Robert Alfred Watson, we have dated it to around 1919 or later as he is wearing his three WW1 medal ribbons. By the uniform that he is wearing he is at least a staff sergeant, serving overseas. The leather belt/sash that he wears is known as a “Sam Brown” so he was probably a Warrant Officer 2nd Class. Due to the fact that this is post WW1 it is highly possible that his Army records are still held with the Ministry of Defence, so I suggest that you contact them in the first Instance.
You need to contact:

Army Personnel Centre
Historic Disclosures,
Mailpoint 555,
Kentigern House,
65 Brown Street,
Glasgow,
G2 8EX

Tel: 0845 600 9663

NB Colleen tried every site she could for his Army records but to no avail. I then contacted Glasgow but they can't help without his Army number.

[gilian rowland]

To make life easier, the photo of my relative ROBERT ALFRED WATSON, known to the family as Alf, has been added to the first
posting here. Do hope someone is able to find this person ie marriage, family , death (possibly in London) I have just ordered
his birth certificate to get the exact date of birth.

I hadn't picked up on the info from the National Archives, as below (and above) , ie what are his "Three WW1 Medal Ribbons" - apologies for my ignorance.

I need a lucky break! Thanks Jill



On 24 January 2012 12:21, ARK Records Enquiries <[email protected]> wrote:
Our Ref: PR’11/E262

Dear Ms Rowland

Thank you for your enquiry of 20th January 2012.

On looking at the photograph that you supplied of Robert Alfred Watson, we have dated it to around 1919 or later as he is wearing his three WW1 medal ribbons.

[thewideeyedowl]

Hi

Have just been trying to figure out this thread, which seems to be about three things (background on the man, identification of the uniform, and war record) and by two people. It's all a bit confusing!

Info provided in a recent-ish reply states that the man pictured is wearing the ribbons for three war medals; plus, the uniform looks tropical. I therefore searched MICs on Ancestry for someone with the right initials, three medals, and a 'tropical' posting. An earlier reply has identified the man as possibly a sergeant. And, ta-da.....this came up:

R A Watson, Royal Ir[ish] Fusiliers, A/Sgt, No 2326. // R[oyal] E[ngineers], Pte, No 200679

Medals: Victory, British, 15 Star

Theatre of war: Egypt (entered 18/11/15)

Well, could this be your man? I realise that there is nothing there to connect him with Newcastle. But a quick search from the scant info to hand suggests that he could make it on to the shortlist.

Owl

[gilian rowland]

Pleased that you are a wideeyedowl as at this hour I'm not! Very many thanks for your posting and for all the trouble you have gone to which is wonderful.
It's late but thought I'd reply now. I'm very grateful to you. For ease please see my comments in your text - plus
input I received from the support team at Ancestry today.

Hi

Have just been trying to figure out this thread, which seems to be about three things (background on the man, identification of the uniform, and war record) and by two people. It's all a bit confusing!

**** Yes sorry for the confusion - as I have said previously here, a genealogist friend posted the message and ROBERT ALFRED WATSON'S photo a few years ago. . I have then found info from here there and everywhere on his uniform hence my re-posting it.
I have been moving the posting around as I think we have exhausted finding more for him through identifying his uniform so
thought I'd ask if anyone can find him.

Info provided in a recent-ish reply states that the man pictured is wearing the ribbons for three war medals; plus, the uniform looks tropical. I therefore searched MICs on Ancestry for someone with the right initials, three medals, and a 'tropical' posting. An earlier reply has identified the man as possibly a sergeant. And, ta-da.....this came up:

R A Watson, Royal Ir[ish] Fusiliers, A/Sgt, No 2326. // R[oyal] E[ngineers], Pte, No 200679

Medals: Victory, British, 15 Star

Theatre of war: Egypt (entered 18/11/15)

Well, could this be your man? I realise that there is nothing there to connect him with Newcastle. But a quick search from the scant info to hand suggests that he could make it on to the shortlist.

**** Excuse my ignorance but out of interest what is MICs on Ancestry? and do you know what Medals: Victory, British, 15 Star were for although guess I can google. Also since before the war he was in Newcastle on Tyne would it have been the norm to have enlisted with the Royal Irish Fusiliers?

R A Watson, Royal Ir[ish] Fusiliers, A/Sgt, No 2326. // R[oyal] E[ngineers], Pte, No 200679

so this is brilliant - where do we/I go from here please ie who would hold this record?

With this last weekend being free on Ancestry I attempted a basic search and in the end tied myself in knots so emailed their support team - below is the reply just received. They give two links but then say one has to be a member of Ancestry - can you check them - assuming it doesn't take ages - I don't want to ask too much of you.

I am thrilled with the work you have done and do hope that i can find what to do next
best wishes and thanks
Jill

Owl

Reply from Ancestry to GR 30.7.2014

"I have searched our collections on Ancestry and filtered this down to only military records. There is one Service records for a Robert Watson born 1895 in Northumberland, and another with similar details but with no date of birth. I have attached both of these below.

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin...iv=1&ml_rpos=1

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin...iv=1&ml_rpos=4

You will need a subscription to access these records. I hope this helps. I wish you the best of luck with your search. "

[thewideeyedowl]

Good morning, Jill...

Very quick reply:
1. Is it certain beyond doubt that the man in the photo is the man known as Alf Watson to his family?
2. Find out about medals from TNA: https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/r...gn-service.htm. There is a useful Appendix on WW1.
3. Read the WW1 Research Guides at TNA.
4. Use https://www.1914-1918.net for background - just so much useful stuff there. Investigate the campaigns in Egypt and Palestine there.
5. Run numerous internet searches for things like (Miners AND Royal Engineers AND WW1). Try Newcastle instead of Miners. Basically, just google, google, google... (only, I use bing!)

If time later, will check Ancestry for you.

Keep specific questions coming in this thread to push it to the top of the leader board. It will gets lots of views and start 'trending' in modern parlance. You need the military specialists here to take it up. And they will!

In a rush.

Owl

[thewideeyedowl]

A MIC is a Medal Index Card, and just about as near as you can get to a list of service personnel during WW1. Over 60% of service records for this war were destroyed during the Blitz in 1940. You will find about this on The Long Long Trail ( the 1914-18 site I linked to earlier).

The MICs that had been held by the Western Front Association have been digitised by Ancestry - in full technicolour, i.e. pink. You get to see the front and the back of the card; there is occasionally some extra info on the back. The National Archives (TNA) holds index cards in a slightly different format; there are usually six names per card. You can download a copy of one for a small fee, about £3.30-ish, if I remember aright.

Military records are kept, I believe, by the name under which the serviceman/woman served. So you can see the huge number of variations that 'Robert Alfred' could produce.

If the Alf Watson who is the subject of this thread stayed on in the army after 1920 his records will still be with MOD. Info about how to apply for a copy are in a sticky at the top of the WW1 forum; basically, you have to jump through bureaucratic hoops and pay £30.

All for now.

Owl

[thewideeyedowl]

And this is the link to the MIC at TNA: https://discovery.nationalarchives.go...8%29&_sd=&_ed=.

Sorry I hadn't posted that before.

Owl

[thewideeyedowl]

This should take you to the page that shows that Robert Watson served in WW1: https://www.dmm.org.uk/warserve/names_wa.htm. No further info, but click around the site.

On The Long Long Trail I have found that the 2nd and 5th (Service) Battalions of the Royal Irish Fusiliers were in Egypt at the right dates.

Off to work, so further input from me will be nil until late afternoon at the earliest.

Owl

[gilian rowland]

Dear Owl

I can't thank you enough for the information and help/advice you have given in your emails - thanks so much!
Incredible to have such knowledge.

1) You asked

"Is it certain beyond doubt that the man in the photo is the man known as Alf Watson to his family?"

Yes it is. I don't have the original photo (and don't know who has in the family) but I was sent a copy of it
from a relative whose mother did so much of the Watson family tree work.


2) Thanks for the reference to Durham Mining Museum - I have contacted them to ask for further info on the Watson listed there.

3) Ref the person you have found. As I said previously Ancestry told me during last weekend's free access that there
are two people that might be my relative but that the one I thought might be him has the wrong parents and the second one
says male Netherton whereas mine was from Heaton Newcastle on Tyne. Sadly when I copied the two extremely long links
they gave me and posted on here, after it was sent I noticed that the links in full didn't come out.

I will wait for the birth certificate to get exact details of his birth although know everything except the actual day and month
but won't receive that for a couple of weeks at least.

I have him on the 1911 census but since that is the last census available to view not sure where to go to find out about
him personally ie other than military service - could someone guide me please ie the possible marriage, divorce and remarriage,
possibly a daughter Carol and possibly dying in London - then hopefully I can progress once dob is confirmed.

Again thanks to wise Owl.
Jill