Marriage of Henry Breden to Martha? When?

[Diamond]

Can anyone find a marriage record for Henry William Breden born 28 October 1848 in Rotherfield, Sussex to Martha born approx 1851 in Penshurst, Kent?

I think they had the following children:
Florence Breden 1879
Henry William Breden 1881
Bertha Breden 1888
Fred Breden 1890
Ernest Breden 1897

I think Henry William Breden died Dec 1939 in Malling, Kent, but cannot find a death for Martha. The only marriage I have found for a Henry to a Martha is in Bethnal Green in MarQ 1872, (with a Martha Mary A Hall born in Bethnal Green Sep 1850). I do not think this is them, I feel sure they would have married in Kent or Sussex boarder area.

[Jan1954]

Rather than speculate - and our ancestors managed to marry in what to us were the strangest of places - the best bet would be to nail a birth cetificate of one of he children. That would provide Martha's maiden name.

From where did you obtain the details of the children?

[Nicolina]

according to the 1911 Census (RG14PN4983 RG78PN219 RD75 SD2 ED5 SN59) Henry BREDEN and Martha had been married 30 years (i.e. abt. 1881). They also had 9 children, 3 of whom had died.
a word of warning. there was a Henry William BREDEN born about 1881 whose death you might have found.

There is a marriage:
Mar 1881
Henry BREEDEN East Grinstead Vol 2B Page 193

on same page Martha ADAMS

[Peter Goodey]

the best bet would be to nail a birth certificate of one of he children

I would say that's the only way to go. Anything else is guesswork.

[olliecat]

There is a marriage:
Mar 1881
Henry BREEDEN East Grinstead Vol 2B Page 193

on same page Martha ADAMS

Details of this marriage from FamilySearch...

groom's name: Henry Breeding
groom's birth date: 1850
groom's age: 31
bride's name: Martha Adams
bride's birth date: 1861
bride's age: 20
marriage date: 04 Jan 1881
marriage place: Saint Michaels, Withyham, Sussex
groom's father's name: Henry Breeding
bride's father's name: James Adams

Getting hold of one of their children's birth certificates would still be advisable.

[Diamond]

This is not my family tree but that of an 81 year old gentleman that I help in the local library. He wants me to help find out about his family tree without spending any money to do it!

[olliecat]

I think Henry William Breden died Dec 1939 in Malling, Kent, but cannot find a death for Martha.

A possibility for Martha (if she was born abt 1861 as per the marriage record) ...

Mar 1934 East Grinstead 2b 128
Martha Breden
Age 75

[Mutley]

I suspect the details of the children came from the 1901 census.

Seeing as we are playing guessing games
This might be the same family in Frant, Sussex in 1891.

Henry Breden, age 42 b. 1849, an Ag Lab, Rotherfield, Sussex
Martha, Wife, age 40 b. 1851, Fordcombe, Kent
Florence, Daughter, age 12 b. 1879. Ticehurst, Sussex
Henry, Son, age 8 b. 1883, Groombridge, Kent
Bertha, Daughter, age 4 b. 1887 Frant
Frederick, Son, age 1 b. 1890 Frant

But if the marriage was in 1881 then Florence (1879) is aged wrongly or born before the marriage.
RG12/781 Folio 51 Page 8 (TNA Copyright)

The old gent does need to fork out a few bob if you really want to send him off with the correct family because Breden seems to have so many variations of the spelling of the name.

[Mutley]

Some families go back through the census very easy, some are more difficult, this lot may be one of the later families.

In 1881 there is a Henry born about 1850 in Kent with a wife Martha born about 1861 in Penshurst.
They are living in Speldhurst.
They have a daughter Florence born 1880 in Ticehurst.
But Henry is an engine driver!!!
Their name is BREATHING
RG11/912 Folio 66 Page 32 (TNA Copyright)

(EDIT: Note Martha's age, but the Breathings don't seem to exist before or after this census)

The only birth I can find that might line up with Florence and what we know so far is on FreeBMD
Florence Barden, Tunbridge, June 1879


This may also be of interest.
England & Wales Christening Records, 1530-1906
Henry William Breden, born 28 Oct 1848, christened 7 Jan 1849 in Rotherfield, Sussex.
Father Henry William Breden, Mother Hannah

[Diamond]

Yes Henry was an engine driver. Old Mr B. remembers his Grandfather being a steam engine driver who worked on the land and knew all about threshing machines etc. I thought railway "engine driver" but was corrected by him! I wish he would spend some money to find out for sure rather than calculated guess, I am pleased that he wants to do it and put his family tree on paper before as he puts it "it is too late".

I have traced the children using the census records available without spending money, so was grateful to the person who looked up the 1911 census as I have run out of credit looking up my own family tree. Florence does seem to have been born before her parents marriage took place.

In summary: Henry William Breden born 1822 Wityham, Sussex, married Hannah and had
Henry William Breden 28 Oct 1848,Rotherfield Sussex,
Harriett Breden 1851 Rotherfield, Sussex
George Breden 1855 Rotherfield, Sussex
Ann Breden 1860 Rotherfield, Sussex
Hannah Breden dies 1864 Uckfield, Sussex
Sep 1865 Henry Breden marries Jane Wilard in Uckfield, Sussex and has another family of children:
William Breden Dec 1865 Uckfield, Sussex
John Breden Mar 1867 Uckfield, Sussex
Elizabeth Breden 1869
Philidelphia Breden Dec 1870 Uckfield, Sussex
Jane Breden sep 1874 Uckfield, Sussex
Following Henry's death second wife Jane Breden can be found in 1881 census in Withyham, Sussex with children.
Son Henry appears to be:
In 1881 there is a Henry born about 1850 in Kent with a wife Martha born about 1861 in Penshurst.
They are living in Speldhurst.
They have a daughter Florence born 1880 in Ticehurst.
But Henry is an engine driver!!!
Their name is BREATHING
RG11/912 Folio 66 Page 32 (TNA Copyright)
(This was identified by Mutley, thank you)

Henry William Breden marries Martha and has according to 1911 census 9 children, 6 of whom are still living by 1911, I think these include: Florence 1879 Ticehurst, Sussex, Henry William Breden (how original)! born Dec 1881 East Grinstead, Bertha Breden born 1888 in Frant, Sussex, Fred Breden 1890 Frant, Sussex and Ernest William Breden 1897 Southborough, Kent.

My Mr B. is decended from the 3 Henry William Bredens so that is the line I am trying to trace for him at no cost! Does anybody else get roped in to helping others, taking time away from doing your own tree? Hopefully I am making an old man happy, but it would be easier to bake him a cake!

Thank you for all the help.