Hunt for Agnes Jane Scott

[freddie999]

My GrandFather, William Henry Scott was born in Carlisle in 02/10/1896; the year is confirmed by his age on his marriage cetrificate, and on army medical papers. However, I ordered his birth certificate, which give his mother's name as Agnes Jane Scott, and to add difficulties to my reseach, no father was recorded on this certificate. Before his birth, Agnes worked in Carlisle in service. I have had difficulties in tracing Agnes before his birth. I have looked back to the census prior to his birth for her, there are a number, I couldn't decide which is my Agnes!! So I have no idea which family to follow.

Somehow I came upon a 1911 census record for a family, the wife was Agnes Jane Graham, head of the household was Henry Graham (married 17 years) and they had a son William Graham (born in 1897). Interestingly, they have a daughter (born 1890) and a neice with Scott surname.

In the 1901 census, I found Agnes J Graham, with William H Graham. But no Henry Graham, who I havent been able to find him in any earlier census's. I have searched around for Henry's & Agnes's marriage details, with no success. Can anyone help?

[notanotherminer]

Can you tell us all the details on the marriage certificate please? Who did he claim to be his father when he married?

[notanotherminer]

Do you have the 1911 census reference please? If not can you post the full details of all the people living in the household?

We can assist you easier if you give us as much information as possible.

[Mutley]

The reference for the 1901 census is RG13/4869 Folio 120 Page 30 (TNA Copyright)

Agnes J Graham, wife b. 1871 in Ivy Gill
Charlotte L Scott, daughter b. 1893 in Thursby
William H Graham, son b. 1897 in Carlisle
John Graham, son b. 1899 in Carlisle
living in Duke Street Carlisle.

Still searching for the 1911.

[olliecat]

I imagine this is Agnes Jane Graham etc. in 1911.

1911: RG14/31331 SN24

[Mutley]

An Agnes Graham b. 1871 in Egremont is in the workhouse at Whitehaven in 1891,
beneath her in the listing is a 4 year old William Graham b. 1887.

RG12/4316, Folio 119, Page 2
(TNA Copyright)
I don't think they are yours because William's age is wrong, but the names are a co-incidence so I thought I had better mention it.

[notanotherminer]

Is the address on his Military Records 14 Duke Street, Carlisle? According to his Service Records his next of kin was Alice J Scott, mother, of the same address.

If I have the correct records, even allowing that the Army incorrectly recorded his mother's first name, it would appear that in 1917 she was calling herself Scott and not Graham.

We really need to look at those censuses and try to trace the individuals back. If William's mother married Henry Graham in 1894 (17 years married in 1911) one would expect William to be registered as William Henry Graham. Someone may well have got their arithmetic wrong (or added years for the sake of "respectability" - William was 16!) when they filled in the census in which case it's conceivable that his mother married after his birth.

The absence of a father's name on the birth certificate certainly points to an illegitimate birth but it's curious that Agnes/Alice was calling herself Scott in 1915.

[olliecat]

Interestingly, there is an Agnes Jane Scott born abt 1869 in Hesket in the 1891 census, living at Thursby. She is a housekeeper. In the 1901 cenus, the child Charlotte Lilian Scott is recorded as being born at Thursby.

1891: RG12 Piece: 4296 Folio: 89 Page:1 (crown copyright, care of the TNA)

Also, in the 1871 and 1881 census, there is an Agnes Jane Scott, born in Hesket. She is the niece of Thomas Craghill and Ann/Agnes nee Scott.

1871: RG10 Piece: 5207 Folio: 87 Page: 10 (crown copyright, care of the TNA)
1881: RG11 Piece: 5169 Folio: 79 Page: 7 (crown copyright, care of the TNA)

The question being - is this the same Agnes?

[notanotherminer]

Thanks Mutley and Olliecat. The 1901 census certainly confirms that I was looking at the correct Army Records.

It would certainly seem from the 2 censuses that Agnes had children to different men but it seems that William was the only child who had his name changed from Scott to Graham. Her 2 daughters retained the name Scott.

I've not yet found a possible marriage for Henry and Agnes.

[Mutley]

The reference for the 1901 census is RG13/4869 Folio 120 Page 30 (TNA Copyright)

Agnes J Graham, wife b. 1871 in Ivy Gill
Charlotte L Scott, daughter b. 1893 in Thursby
William H Graham, son b. 1897 in Carlisle
John Graham, son b. 1899 in Carlisle
living in Duke Street Carlisle.

Looking at the original for this census a Mary Hetherington born 1873 in Carlisle could be the head of the household.

Next door at number 24 Duke Street is
Hannah Graham, a widow, b. 1857
William G, son, b. 1886
Mary J, daughter, b. 1890
Margaret Fletcher, mother, b. 1820
All born in Carlisle.