search for anne maria hine [nee] james,

[olliecat]

I’m afraid I haven’t had any more luck pinning down Annie in the 1861 census. I certainly can’t find her with a father James. Twice her birth place is recorded as Farnham, once as Camberwell and twice as London. I suspect that her birth place of Camberwell on the 1891 census was dittoed from her husband’s birth place, who was born roughly in that area. However, since both Farnham and Camberwell are in Surrey, then I would guess she was born somewhere in Surrey, with Farnham being the likeliest, but this is just a guess.
On some census, both William and Annie state London as their birth places. Stating London as a birth place became more common after 1889 when parts of the Surrey, Kent and Middlesex were formed into the administrative county of London. William stating London is fine, since Peckham/Camberwell are counted as part of London after this date. However, Annie is not particularly consistent and states Farnham in the 1901 census and London in 1911. Farnham has never been in London, either before or after 1889. It is in Surrey and is near the border of Hampshire.
Anyway, regardless of all this, I did look for any Annie James born in Surrey, Middlesex or Hampshire in the 1861 census, but I couldn’t locate her for sure.
There are no Annie Maria James births in Farnham around 1853+/-2. The only other births I can find in the indexes in Middlesex or Surrey are …

• JAMES Anne Maria Stepney London 1853
• JAMES Anny Maria Marylebone London 1854
• JANES Annie Maria Newington London 1855

With this last birth, there is a christening for an Anne Janes in 1855 at Camberwell St George, Surrey. Father is James Woolcock Janes. Mother is Ann. However, the father's occupation is paper maker. So, the surname isn’t quite right and the father’s occupation isn’t close to being a jeweller, however, I do wonder where this family is in the 1861 census.

Just on the off-chance, I also checked the regimental/overseas birth indexes but no joy.

I’m not sure where you can go from her. For the moment, I would suggest that you collect all the documentation you can on Annie, William and their children such as birth certificates and anything else you can find. Once, I was very lucky and broke through one of my own brickwalls because a grandmother (who I didn’t know about) registered the death of her grandchild. Another ancestor of mine had a double-barrelled surname, but she tended to use only the first part of the surname, which meant I couldn’t find her or her parents for quite some time. I only discovered her full surname because she it was recorded on one of her children’s birth certificates. These are rare occurrences though.

There may be a number of reasons why Annie is not jumping out of the 1861 census at us. She could have been an orphan. Or her mum may have married again and Annie is recorded under a different surname. Or the family were missed off the 1861 census. Or the father’s name as recorded on her marriage certificate is incorrect; (this happens more often than one thinks.) None of this speculation helps you find her of course. You could investigate the Annie’s whose birth records I’ve listed above. See if you can find them in the census. You could also have another look for any James James in the 1861 census who has an occupation of jeweller or similar. Although I did conduct such a search, specifying an occupation of jeweller, silversmith and other variations of this occupation as part of the search criteria, I may have missed him.

I'm sorry I haven't found her for you. Don't give up hope though. Sometimes break-throughs come from unexpected places.

[antony1958]

thank,s for all your help, but have search and had no luck,

[KathNZ]

Hi Antony

I have been looking again at Ann James and I keep coming back to the daughter of Ellen James.
I suppose it is really just a bit of a hunch based partly on the names of Anna Maria’s children.
Ann was baptised 13 Feb 1852 at Bermondsey Workhouse. Her birth seems to be on FreeBDM March ¼ 1852 as Ann Wright James, Bermondsey district. I am assuming that Wright may be the surname of her father.

In 1861 Ann is with her mother Ellen Williams, step father Edward Williams, her grandmother Ellen James & several uncles & aunts at RG9/320 f21 p35 also some more of the family on the next page.
Ann’s mother has died before 1871 but her step father Edward & two half siblings are at RG10/644 f50 p23

I cannot find this Ann in 1871 which means she could be your Ann but I cannot find any proof. I have looked for marriages of her family to see if she was a witness but have found nothing. The father’s name on her marriage certificate would be understandable if she was illegitimate and put on the spot to provide a “father” on her wedding day!

Census care of TNA

[antony1958]

hi kath,
thank,s ever so much for your time & searching, if i order this birth certificate what will it tell me , if the father was
wright, was he a jeweller, and why on 1871 census she uses farnham surrey her birth place, i would really lovei t to be
right, it would really end my searching, i have just been to london record.s in kew. i ask everyone but the porter, but no
joy. do you think i should get the certificate. many thank,s tony,p

[KathNZ]

Hi Antony

I don't really think the birth cert. will solve your problem. It may give the father's name but unless he is a jeweller, which I think is unlikely, it won't prove she is the Ann who married William Hine.
Don't give up you never know when something will appear to solve the puzzle. Keep looking at witnesses on marriage certificates as they can give a lot of information.

[antony1958]

hi kath,
i could not find ann wright james im going to leave it for a while, but another little query were did my 3rd gt grandfather,
thomas WAGER pelling b 1781 d 1848 in chatham kent get he,s name WAGER, a nice little puzzle,
let me know kath if you can sort it out , cheer,s tony.p

[KathNZ]

I have has a quick look at Thomas Wager Pelling but not come up with anything. A bit of a puzzler !

[kazza]

Hi Antony

I have been looking again at Ann James and I keep coming back to the daughter of Ellen James.
I suppose it is really just a bit of a hunch based partly on the names of Anna Maria’s children.
Ann was baptised 13 Feb 1852 at Bermondsey Workhouse. Her birth seems to be on FreeBDM March ¼ 1852 as Ann Wright James, Bermondsey district. I am assuming that Wright may be the surname of her father.

In 1861 Ann is with her mother Ellen Williams, step father Edward Williams, her grandmother Ellen James & several uncles & aunts at RG9/320 f21 p35 also some more of the family on the next page.
Ann’s mother has died before 1871 but her step father Edward & two half siblings are at RG10/644 f50 p23

I cannot find this Ann in 1871 which means she could be your Ann but I cannot find any proof. I have looked for marriages of her family to see if she was a witness but have found nothing. The father’s name on her marriage certificate would be understandable if she was illegitimate and put on the spot to provide a “father” on her wedding day!

Census care of TNA

I agree with you KathNZ I have a hunch that the Ann James who was born to Ellen James is the correct one and because she was baseborn invented "James James" with an occupation that the Hine family would find as acceptable. I have the same thing with one of my maternal ancestors she was baseborn but suddenly on her marriage cert there appears a father whose occupation is listed as Goldsmith perfectly acceptable when entering a family of Silversmiths etc.

[Kerrywood]

Looking for the father and possible siblings of Annie in 1881 - ( surname James b Farnham) this family looks interesting. Possibly related in some way?
RG 11 p 787 f12 p17
an Edward James b 1800 watchmaker, wife Maria, son William watchmaker b Farnham 1842.

I agree, Grisel. I don't think the birthplace of Farnham can be ignored. My searches keep coming back to this family.

In 1861 there is a granddaughter in the household, Ann WALTER (or WALLER?) aged 8, born London Middlesex.
RG9/432 folio 4 page 1 (record held by TNA, Crown copyright)

Taking this family back to 1841, Edward JAMES has several daughters who could theoretically be the mother of this Ann.

Is there any mileage in this, as a another possible line of investigation?

[antony1958]

thank,s for all your reply,s but no luck. i havent a clue were to look now,