search for anne maria hine [nee] james,

[antony1958]

ive hit a brickwall concerning my gtgt grandmother annie maria james, b abt 1852 in farnham hampshire,
she wed my gtgt grandad william arthur hine in 1872 in the strand london, well on the wedding certificate
her father,s name was james james, a jeweller by profesion, i have searched high & low but cannot find
any census apart 1971 witch shows anne marie james , with my gtgtgrandad william arthur hine ,in london,
before they wed, on the census is tell how old 19, and were she was born farnham, well now im hitting the
brickwall, i cannot find her birth certificate, or anything to do with her father james james,
if their is anyone out their to solve my problem i would be over the moon.
your, sincerley antony pelling.

[olliecat]

Hi Antony and welcome to the forum

Just to start off, is this your William and Annie in the 1871 census?

1871: RG10 piece 363 folio 22 page 5 (crown copyright, care of the TNA)
Newcastle Street Fountain, St Clement Danes, Westminster
WHEELER, William, head, 36, licensed victualler, Oxfordshire
WHEELER, Mary Ann, wife 29 Middlesex
WHEELER, William J, son, 8 Middlesex
WHEELER, Joseph J, son, 7 Middlesex
WHEELER, Emma M, dau, 4 Middlesex
WHEELER, Edith E, dau, 3 mo, Middlesex
WHEELER, Louisa, niece, 14 Warwickshire
HINE, William A, 19, manager, Farnham Surrey
JAMES, Annie, 19, housekeeper, Farnham Surrey
MELTON, Daniel 19 Suffolk
LOVETT, Harritt 19 Suffolk

I was wondering if you have them in the later census. I see a William A Hine in the 1891 census with wife Annie M. However, for this couple, their birth places are recorded as Camberwell. William's occupation is licenced victualler and they have quite a few children.

Tell us a little more about your William and Annie and their children, so we can make sure we find the right couple.

[kazza]

Hi Antony and welcome to the forum

Just to start off, is this your William and Annie in the 1871 census?

1871: RG10 piece 363 folio 22 page 5 (crown copyright, care of the TNA)
Newcastle Street Fountain, St Clement Danes, Westminster
WHEELER, William, head, 36, licensed victualler, Oxfordshire
WHEELER, Mary Ann, wife 29 Middlesex
WHEELER, William J, son, 8 Middlesex
WHEELER, Joseph J, son, 7 Middlesex
WHEELER, Emma M, dau, 4 Middlesex
WHEELER, Edith E, dau, 3 mo, Middlesex
WHEELER, Louisa, niece, 14 Warwickshire
HINE, William A, 19, manager, Farnham Surrey
JAMES, Annie, 19, housekeeper, Farnham Surrey
MELTON, Daniel 19 Suffolk
LOVETT, Harritt 19 Suffolk

I was wondering if you have them in the later census. I see a William A Hine in the 1891 census with wife Annie M. However, for this couple, their birth places are recorded as Camberwell. William's occupation is licenced victualler and they have quite a few children.

Tell us a little more about your William and Annie and their children, so we can make sure we find the right couple.

Hi Olliecat

I can give you the relevant info that you need as Tony is a cousin of mine who I pointed in your direction with his problem to see if anyone could throw some light on his brickwall.

William Arthur Hine b. 1853 in Peckham and married Annie Maria James in 1872 in the Strand, London. They did have quite alot of children (11 in total) the oldest being Eleanor who was bapt in Camden on the 27 Apr 1874, the second youngest child was Lilian Ada Hine who went on to marry Frederick William Pelling.

The 1871 census that you have is the correct one as William's birth place is listed as Peckham and where he was manager of the Fountain public house. In 1881 he is listed as a licensed victualler of the Duke of Clarence Public house in commercial road. Annie's place of birth is given as London. I couldnt find them in 1891 but in 1901 they are in Prittlewell in Essex William now it seems has his own pub/hotel. Annie's place of birth is given as Farnham, Surrey.

The children from the marriage were as follows:
Eleanor b. 1854, Arthur Thomas b. 1876, Annie Eliza b. 1877, William Alfred b. 1879, Clarence b. 1880 (probably named after the Duke of Clarence Pub that William was managing at the time), Laura Alice b.1882, Annie Maud b. 1883, George Frederick b. 1885, Ernest Edward b. 1887, Lilian Ada b. 1890 and lastly Joseph Walter b. 1892.

Annie listed her father on her marriage entry as "James James" a Jeweller so far no census can be found for a James James who was a jeweller or in that trade making it more difficult to pin down parentage and a place of birth/year. I hope that this helps

Kazza

[olliecat]

In 1881 he is listed as a licensed victualler of the Duke of Clarence Public house in commercial road. Annie's place of birth is given as London. I couldnt find them in 1891 but in 1901 they are in Prittlewell in Essex William now it seems has his own pub/hotel. Annie's place of birth is given as Farnham, Surrey.

Hi Kazza, thanks for the info. Just wondering if they are in Camberwell in 1891. Do you have access to the census? I could transcribe it, but here's the ref for the moment. See what you think.

1891: RG12 Piece: 470 Folio: 61 Page: 22 (crown copyright, care of the TNA)

[kazza]

Just wondering if they are in Camberwell in 1891.

1891: RG12 Piece: 470 Folio: 61 Page: 22 (crown copyright, care of the TNA)

I have checked the census and it is the correct one how did you find it? I tried various spellings of the surname Hine but didn't think to change the first letter. On that census Annie's place of birth is given as Camberwell. Many thanks will let Tony know about it.

[KathNZ]

Well, here's something to throw into the pot.

Ann James dau of Ellen James bap 13 Feb 1852, Bermondsey, Surrey.

1861 RG9/320 f21 p 35

Mother Ellen married Edward Williams 17 Feb 1860 St James Bermondsey

The family can be found living
1851 HO107/1583 f49 p18
1841 HO107/1067 f26 p3

(crown copyright, care of the TNA)

[olliecat]

I have checked the census and it is the correct one how did you find it? I tried various spellings of the surname Hine but didn't think to change the first letter. On that census Annie's place of birth is given as Camberwell.

Hmm! I can't remember how I found it. However, it doesn't help much with finding Annie with her parents. It may indicate that she is a bit confused over her birth place. I've spent rather a frustrating couple of hours searching for her and/or James James in the 1861 census. She is being so elusive. The nearest I've come so far to finding a James James (jeweller), is a James JANES in the 1851 census. He is a silversmith. I'm not convinced though, since they have a much older daughter with them who is also called Ann. However, if I could just find this particular James in the 1861 census to eliminate him I would be happier.

Here's the census ref for him anyway.

1851: HO107 Piece: 1582 Folio: 153 Page: 19 (crown copyright, care of the TNA)

No much help so far. I'll have another hunt later this evening, unless someone finds them in the meantime.

[olliecat]

I'm not sure this is of much help either, but before fixing myself some supper I thought I'd see how many birth registrations there were in Surrey for Anne Maria James or similar for 1853 +/-2.

JAMES, Anne Maria, Stepney London, 1853
JAMES, Anny Maria, Marylebone London, 1854
JANES, Annie Maria, Newington London, 1855

There are of course many more registrations where the first or middle name is Mary rather that Maria.

[Mutley]

No help to your original question but just in case you do not have it
William A Hine was still publican at the Duke of Clarence, 71 Commercial Road in 1884.

On the 1881 Annie is transcribed as being born in London, Middlesex but there is no sign of Middlesex anywhere on the original.
Pesky enumerator!

Do you have her will, any clues there?
she left quite a bit back then

[olliecat]

They are not very helpful in the 1911 census. Both William and Annie state they were born in London.

1911: RG14/10135 SN88