James Sopers kids b.Le Havre France 1840s?

[g_soper]

Hi, I wonder it anyone could help my father who's looking into his grgrgrandparents James Soper (1815-1893) & Ann.

Looks like James's children Louisa & James were both b.'Hazore, France' c1847 & c1850 (from '61cen)

Perhaps this was 'Le Havre' like the 2009 enquiry previously on this forum, which asking about a uk, Le Havre birth 1845?

Wonder what he might be doing staying in France for at least 3 years? From a glance a wiki, it's perhaps a turbulent few years for a foreigner to take his family to France?

Were French coastal towns used at the time by working-class Brits to avoid creditors? (I heard Le Touquet was once a haven of upper-class Brits) (His taxi's fly-horse was put down after it bolted when 'carelessly' left unattended a bit after the '41cen. Presumably quite a loss, especially if mortgaged? In '61cen he was carrying a lot more than a fly whip, as a middle-age porter)

perhaps Pottoka is still on this forum & could pass on another enquiry to France?

Thanks Geoff -details of James below
----------------

'41 cen at Bannister Street, Southampton James Soper 25-9 a flyman, Anne 25-9, George 6, Frederick 4, Ann 1

c1847 & c1850 parents in Hazore, France? (no Hazore vis in www)

HO107/416[1/18]page 30 Crown Copyright TNA

'51cen family not visable

'61 cen at 17 Upper (?Banistead?), Southampton All Saints, James Soper 43 a porter b.Basingstoke, wife Ann 46 b.Winchester, George 24, Frederick H 22, Ellen 18, Jane 16, Sarah 15 all b.Southampton, Louisa 13 & James 11, a scholar, both b.Hazore, France
RG09/677/42/page 25 Crown Copyright TNA

'71cen : James Soper (c1820-?) a flyman marks? man 51, b.North Waltham; at 17 Carlton Place , Southampton, All Saints; wife Ann Soper 51, b.Winchester; unm dau Jane Soper 26, b.Southampton; grandau Ann Soper 1m, b.Southampton with brother in law William Hayter 23 unm flyman b.S.ton; (sharing property with John Glazen 29 a dock porter b.Hastings,Sx & wife Helen 29 b.Southampton) : (might this indicate a different wife Ann?) [who is grandau Ann? b.S'ton Apr>Jun 1871]
RG10/1192/14/page 21 Crown Copyright TNA

[Kerrywood]

Welcome to the BG forums!

Just as regards the place of birth ...

both b.Hazore, France
RG09/677/42/page 25 Crown Copyright TNA

I think it is actually written France Harvre. If so, probably Le Havre is intended.

[Kerrywood]

There's a possible baptism in 1849 for James SOPER in the GRO's Foreign Registers and Returns RG33/57, which records baptisms, marriages and burials in Havre, France, 1843-1863 (reference to record held by TNA).

A transcript and image of the baptism record are available on the pay site BMDregisters.co.uk, or via a subscription to TheGenealogist.

[g_soper]

>"There is an interesting note on the original image...."

Thanks notanotherminer, I don't think that margin comment was noted

I feel 'lifes sweet' this morning now I imagine poor widowed Ellen 36, working as a cook while maintaining a paralysed father 66, a blind mother 68 & a 10y old niece, presumably supported by modest rent from looking after a retired sgt 62

I can perhaps save poor Ellen's honour (she's suffered enough); She m.John Glazier Jul>Sep 1865 S'ton. He d.Apr>Jun 1871 S'ton age 28 & Ann Soper was b.Apr>Jun 1871 S'ton. It's just feasible that Ann was illegitimately hers, but I guess most likely a niece of 1 of her 2 brothers

James survived to 1891, so when my father returns from holiday, We'll check in his census page margin notes to see if it was he who was disabled (Ann d.Apr>Jun 1889 S'ton age 72) (an Ellen Glazier d.Oct>Dec S'ton, age 79, which is abt right age)

'91cen : James 75 b.S'ton living with son George 52 b.S'ton, Charlotte 51 b.Irl, George 18, James 16 both b.S'ton

Thanks for your help Geoff

[g_soper]

>There's a possible baptism 1849 for James SOPER in Havre, France.......

That's great, thanks Kerrywood, so it was Le Havre, France [& you imply it was just called Havre then, at least by us Brits]

Odd if James got recorded, that Louisa didn't make it onto the list 2 or 3 years earlier

I'll pass your links on to my father to check out

Meanwhile we notice that after the railways reached Southampton it was bursting with vessels from Le Havre & a fast paddle ferry had joined the two rail lines. British businesses had moved there, so it seems the 1840's were more like modern times than I imagined, and working in France was not so quite as adventurous a we first thought.

Thanks Geoff

[g_soper]

Thanks again for that overseas BMD source Kerrywood (bmdregisters.co.uk).

I see it lists a sad entry to add to my fathers's tree

A Sarah Soper bapt.1853 and bur.1853, father James, both at Havre

It means that James & his family stayed in Le Havre for at least 6 years; before returning to Southampton before the '61cen

[g_soper]

Hi again; I notice that bmdregisters allow wild card searches, so looked for all Louisa S*'s & found...

Louisa Soaper bpt.1846 Havre, father James

& searching Soaper gave 3 or 4 more. So Le Havre births are now....

1) Louisa Soaper* bpt.1846 Havre father James
2) Mary Ann Soaper bpt.1848 Havre father James
3) Anna Mercer Thornton Soaper bpt.1848 Havre father James [speculate from long name, it might not be his wife’s?]
4) James Soper* bpt.1849 Havre, France father James
Sarah Soper bpt.1853 & bur.1853, father James, both at Havre [bmd] (?a 1853 cholera epidemic in Le Havre took 300 victims)
5) Sarah Soper bpt.1853 & bur.1853, father James, both at Havre [bmd] (?a Le Havre 1853 cholera epidemic took 300 victims)
6) Unnamed Soaper** bapt 1855 Havre, father ... Soaper
?7) a James Soaper** bur.1855 Havre,

*of the 6 or 7 above, only Louisa 13 & James 11 made it back to England for ‘61cen, so assume Mary Ann & Anna (both bpt.1848) also died bef.1861

**as the James bpt.1849 was alive in 1855 (age 11 in Southampton '61cen); assume this burial is most likely one of James's 2 teenage sons, perhaps this 1855 death is of the unnamed Soaper bapt 1855 also?
- Assuming the Soper/Soaper family were all together in Le Havre in 1855, there were also the elder English born children; George 18/19, Frederick H 16/17, Ellen 12, Jane 10 & Sarah 9, all b.S'ton

(perhaps the mix of Soper & Soaper may mean James (or his wife) could not write, even to the extent of spelling their surname)

That mean James & family was in Le Havre for at least 9 years between 1846 & 1861. If 'Pottoka' from this forum sees this post, it would be great if she could enquire from her Le Havre contact. There's quite possibly some other Soper/Soaper mentions in Le Havre records over such a long period. Thanks again

[Kerrywood]

Glad to see you've made so many good finds, Geoff.