James Donovan..

[olliecat]

I am bit puzzled reading through this thread, so here are a couple of questions for you.

• How do you know that the James Donovan mentioned on his son Joseph's marriage certificate was married to Jane?
  
• How did you come by the burial date of 14 Aug 1849 for James Donovan?

I have found an Alexander Donovan..Ancestry 1861 census..of Framfield Park..with son Alex...On another site I found a James Donovan 84y..son Alex of Framfield Park..Sussex..Gentleman... On the marriage certificate of Joseph Donovan and Jane Sarah Sullivan, both parties fathers were Gentleman...Joseph was the son of James, and nephew of Alex.. can someone help me please sort this out...Dale.... are they the same family....

Another question ...

• How do you know that Joseph was the nephew of Alex?

Also have you sorted out Alexander Donovan of Framfield? There is a lot of information on this family if you haven't.

[dalek39]

Thanks Ollicat....family member in NZ gave me the Westminster death of 14 Aug. 1849, but they are not sure either.....so I gues I'll follow the one you gave me at Westminster...me, being in Aust. not sure of areas in England.,where exactly is Westminster.is it part of.London? I know of the cathederal, but I know he;s not there..ha..dont think the Donovans were in that position, though he was classified as a Gentleman..on his sons Marriage record. (England Marriage Banns)...his son was Joseph....what was a Gentleman in those days...??
This James Donovan has gone missing without a trace. that is why I would like to find his death record...so I can connect the dots...have no way otherwise....all I know is Jane, his wife was born in Ireland in 1796..and thats a dead end with the Irish records...Dale.

[dalek39]

Olliecat....Just saw this post, sorry I didn't get back to you on that...now..firstly...to answer your questions....James married to a Jane...I received this info from a relative in NZ..who, I believe is doing his family tree also,,so that information is not mine....He was the member that told me of James death date...again not my research...I'll give you what he sent me...
Decendants Of James Donovan......James Donovan.(22356) ( I believe these numbers are his, not on archives, but I'm not sure>)
James married Jane...no date...Jane was born about 1796..Ireland. and died in 1868 Pancras London England...aged 72.
She appeared on the 1841 census..HO 107/721/5/25p 18 in St James, Dukes Place,London Middlesex.
Children from this marriage....Mary Donovan..born 1827 Ireland.
Sarah Donovan..born 1829 Middlesex England.
Joseph Bartrum (or Bertram) Azelby Donovan.. born 1832 Bermondsey. London.. (I have a question on this person..think he's from a different mother, but, once again, not sure...)
James Donovan, born 1835 Middlesex. London.
Alic (M) born 1837 Middlesex, London.
Now, Joseph Bartrum had a son, John S Donovan..who was my greatgrandfather....born 1852 Croydon Surrey...He went to NZ, and married ..had family...he died in 1914, Ashburton Christchurch NZ....
Alec/ Alex is the uncle of my John S Donovan.....
I have not looked into Framfield as yet, as I didn;t want to get ahead of myself till I was sure who was who... hope this helps...Dale.

[olliecat]

You say much of the information on Joseph Donovan, his siblings and parents comes from a relative. That tend's to worry me since you don't know where he/she came across the information. Have you asked your relative for their sources. You really need that information if you want to be confident of tracing the correct line back. I hope I'm not annoying you by this.

I see from you have another thread on John S Donovan. It's a long thread - did you eventually get hold of his birth certificate - to confirm Joseph Bertram Azelby Donovan as his father?

[olliecat]

... where exactly is Westminster.is it part of.London?

Westminster is an area situated in London. It's roughly about 3 miles by 2 in size and it yes - it contains Westminster Cathedral. See this Genuki page.

They also provide a map of the Westminster parishes.

It's about here on Google Maps

[olliecat]

he was classified as a Gentleman..on his sons Marriage record. (England Marriage Banns)...his son was Joseph....what was a Gentleman in those days...??

Wikipedia (wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentleman) describes the term gentleman. Reading through - you can see that the meaning has changed over time. Traditionally it might indicate someone who did not have a title but was of noble or gentle birth, however, its meaning has become looser over the centuries. In the 19th century it implied a certain social standing related to position, money, manner, education.

Esquires often typically referred to themselves as gentlemen. Also, people in the trade or farmers or the middle classes or anyone who made enough money to be independently wealthy might refer to themselves as gentleman. I've had a couple of those in my family tree but I've also had one instance where a daughter described her father as a gentleman on her marriage certificate, but he was actually a shoemaker - perhaps he was an independently wealthy shoemaker - Anyway, after that experience I viewed another so called 'gentleman' ancestor of mine with suspicion; however in his case I found extra information that indicated he was reasonably well off, so I let that one pass.

As you can see, the term 'gentleman' is not an easy one to pin down.

[olliecat]

I have not looked into Framfield as yet, as I didn;t want to get ahead of myself till I was sure who was who.

Just for your future reference ...

James Donovan, an esquire of Dublin left a will which was proved in 1832. He mentions his wife Margaret, his eldest son Alexander Donovan of Framfield, a daughter Mary, and second son James Donovan. He also mentions grandson Henry (by Alexander) and grandson James Tertius (by second son James).

Note: James Tertius Donovan was born abt 1826 according to family search and died on 7 Nov 1915 at Pearstone Slane, County Meath. He also left a will.

Alexander Donovan of Framfield also left a will which was proved in 1846. His brother James Donovan of Burkham Hill Sussex left a will which was proved in 1833.

Hope this helps, and if you think these Donovans connect to your family of Donovans, then the wills would be a good place to start. But please check them yourself - my eyes are playing up today and the wills are quite long.

[dalek39]

Thanks Olliecat very much...I, like you have "eye trouble" from all the looking...will go through all what you have given me and get back... The names of the Franfield lot are very much the same as my Donovans , but thats doesn't mean a thing I know...anyway, I have some work ahead of me...so, back later...Dale.

[dalek39]

Olliecat....Re the John S Donovan thread, can it be moved to here, or is that too confusing..its the same family..just a thought.
I haven't his birth certificate but I do have his death one...He was always known to us as John Henry Donovan, and it wasn't till he thought he was going to "meet his maker" that he gave his true name..as John Sewell, that is what started this whole Donovan business off...to find out who he really was....and I still don't know...Dale.

[olliecat]

Olliecat....Re the John S Donovan thread, can it be moved to here, or is that too confusing..its the same family..just a thought.

I don't know Dale. A moderator could move it for you - if you asked one of them and they felt it was appropriate. I guess it depends on the purpose/aims of each of your threads. If it would muddle things then it might be best to leave it separate.

I'll go and read your John S Donovan thread.