WARREN in Surrey

[biggirlsblouse]

Hi there,

I am totally not sure this is the right spot for this post or if it's a "brickwall", but here goes...

I am looking for a James Macy Warren born in 1808.

He was tried in the Surrey Assizes and sentenced to transportation for life in 1829, and according to the transportation records, he was from Mitcham in Surrey.

I've tried FreeReg, but the records for Surrey have only just started being transcribed, so not much joy there. I've tried FamilySearch but didn't come across any Warrens born in Mitcham

He had four children, all of whom were born in Tasmania, Australia and NONE of whom appear to have official birth certificates, darn it! (their marriage and death certificates don't have much information about their father).

So I really don't know if he was actually *from* Surrey or if he was just being a criminal in Surrey! (James wasn't one of those poor sods transported for stealing a loaf of bread to feed his family - he was actually a bit of a villain)

Any tips, pointers, good websites to try gratefully accepted... I've tried to find the court records to no avail... I know he was tried in Surrey about a year earlier and did 6mo in Brixton in about 1828 or thereabouts. Going by what's on Ancestry, I suspect he may have been tried and acquitted a couple of times before that, too!

Regards,

Jodi

[georgiep]

Hi Jodi
I would just like to say, I love your humour and honesty about James Macy convict!
Also your user name, made famous by the late great Lancashire comic Hylda Baker.
Perhaps someone can access old newspapers?
I found an Alfred Warren 20 (ages rounded off) in 1841 census in Higher Mitcham not born county.
He appears with assorted people, not family.
And a James 20 not born county servant in Lower Mitcham, not with family.
Sorry me dear not a lot of help.
Good luck
Georgiep

[georgiep]

There could be another side to your family tree!
1851 census Mitcham Hall
Georgina Warren Bidder 42 wife of George civil engineer.
kiddies etc
Wife's Aunt Elizabeth Warren umarried 72 annuitant bn Gt Yarmouth Norfolk
(birthplace mangled by Anc@)
Georgiep

[Kerrywood]

I am looking for a James Macy Warren born in 1808. He was tried in the Surrey Assizes and sentenced to transportation for life in 1829, and according to the transportation records, he was from Mitcham in Surrey. I've tried FreeReg, but the records for Surrey have only just started being transcribed, so not much joy there. I've tried FamilySearch but didn't come across any Warrens born in Mitcham

Baptisms at Mitcham are all supposedly extracted to the IGI for the relevant period. You can double-check easily enough, if you have access, because the bishop's transcripts for Mitcham for this date are browsable on Ancestry's database London, England, Baptisms, Marriages and Burials, 1538-1812. Do look out for any instances of MACEY/MACY as well as WARREN.

Checking the CD of Surrey Baptisms Not on the IGI (West Surrey FHS, 3rd edition) I can't immediately see a candidate for James in any other nearby parish.

I've tried to find the court records to no avail...

Where have you looked? Records for the Surrey Assizes should be at TNA Kew, as well as any petitions or judge's report relating to the case. Have a look at this pdf file, especially sections 5 and 6 which describe the sources that can be searched. If you haven't already pursued this, you could either use Kew's paid-for service for this standard search, or have someone else visit on your behalf.

You could also try emailing Merton Local Studies (covers Mitcham), just in case they have anything on James WARREN or his activities. You'll need to give them exact dates if you want any newspapers searched.

[birdlip]

Hi there,

there is a possible James Warren here on IGI family search;

bap 18 Nov 1809 Kingston on Thames Surrey, parents Thomas and Ann.

about 5 miles away.

[biggirlsblouse]

Where have you looked? Records for the Surrey Assizes should be at TNA Kew, as well as any petitions or judge's report relating to the case. Have a look at this pdf file, especially sections 5 and 6 which describe the sources that can be searched. If you haven't already pursued this, you could either use Kew's paid-for service for this standard search, or have someone else visit on your behalf.

You could also try emailing Merton Local Studies (covers Mitcham), just in case they have anything on James WARREN or his activities. You'll need to give them exact dates if you want any newspapers searched.

Thank you for that! I have emailed the Merton people, and hopefully they might have newspapers or something that mention James (I did find the exact date of the trial that lead to his transportation - Surrey Quarter Sessions, 20th October, 1829)

I had a quick look at London, England, Baptisms, Marriages and Burials, 1538-1812, but I only have the basic Ancestry membership (although I am finding all these cool things I can't get at - I may consider upgrading...)

This is as close as I've got to finding anything of the trial/judges reports for the relevant period. Unless I am looking in the wrong place....

Jodi

[biggirlsblouse]

Hi there,

there is a possible James Warren here on IGI family search;

bap 18 Nov 1809 Kingston on Thames Surrey, parents Thomas and Ann.

about 5 miles away.

Ooh, that IS exciting...

5 miles isn't too far, either. He's a definite possibility!

Jodi

[Kerrywood]

He was tried in the Surrey Assizes and sentenced to transportation for life in 1829

I did find the exact date of the trial that lead to his transportation - Surrey Quarter Sessions, 20th October, 1829

Assizes or Sessions? The records are in different places.

Assizes records are at Kew. Surrey Quarter Sessions records are at the Surrey History Centre in Woking.

[biggirlsblouse]

Assizes or Sessions? The records are in different places.

Assizes records are at Kew. Surrey Quarter Sessions records are at the Surrey History Centre in Woking.

Dollar each way...

The original charge that sent him to Brixton was heard at the Special Assizes in Surrey in 1828/29 and the charge that got him transported was at the Surrey Quarter Sessions (on the document, it's the very first one listed as Quarter Sessions after a long line of Summer Assizes. It was second bottom on the page - which is why I possibly missed that it was Quarter Sessions and not Assizes in the first place!)

The reference on Ancestry is the same, though, aside from the page number (Class HO27 piece 38 page 221 (for the imprisonment) and page 249 (transportation)) So does that mean they'd be in the same place or different???

Jodi

[Kerrywood]

So does that mean they'd be in the same place or different???

The records of hearings at the Assizes and the Quarter Sessions are held in different places (see post #8 above).

Assize records are generally very brief; the court minutes don't normally include a transcript of the proceedings, such as you would get for the Old Bailey.

In either case, any petitions or judge's report will be at Kew (see post #4 above), regardless of where the hearing took place. Section 3 of this TNA Research Guide explains petitions and judge's reports, and indicates what you might get if either was filed. If he was held an unusually long time in the hulks, that may indicate that a petition was under consideration.

Petitions can be of greater genealogical value than court transcripts, since they may name family members and associates.