Help to Translate latin in Baptismal Register

[Dizzy600]

Hi All,

Can someone please have a look at the 'Liverpool, Lancs, Catholic Baptisms 1802 - 1906' on A* please for Bernardus Burke born 16 June 1892, baptised 5 Aug 1892, which are in Latin (No 148 on pg 31 of 50). What I want to know is what is written at the bottom with the date Sept 1933 in it. Does it refer to his death/burial?

Thanks
Karen

[Kerrywood]

It states that he (Bernard) married Ann(a) Finnegan on 18 September 1933 at St Robert's, Manchester.

[Dizzy600]

Thank you Kerrywood for that. Interesting - why would that be put in there 40 years later? I could understand it if it was in the same church but it is in a diffferent city - how would they know?

Also, is it unusual for a boy just to have a 'godmother' and not a 'godfather'?

Thanks
Karen

[barbara lee]

My grandfather had the same, which in his case were notes in the baptismal register about two subsequent marriages. If a Catholic man is marrying in a church other than his own church of baptism (the bride's church) the bride's priest wants to see in advance a copy of the groom's baptismal certificate to prove he is a Catholic in good standing. (Can't have the Sacrament of Marriage if you are an unbaptised heathen, and the priest doesn't want any "mixed marriages" going undetected.) So the groom has to go to the priest at his parish of baptism and get a baptismal certificate, and he says "because I'm marrying NN in such and such a parish on such and such a date". So the groom's priest looks up the baptism, writes out a baptismal certificate for him, and while he has the register open ...

Barbara

[Dizzy600]

Thank you Barbara that makes sense...

Karen

[lancaster.jim]

Hi, Karen,

Kerry has provided the translation -

> It states that he (Bernard) married Ann(a) Finnegan on 18 September 1933 at St Robert's, Manchester.

which prompts your query -

> why would that be put in there 40 years later? I could understand it if it was in the same church but it is in a diffferent city

Possible reasons have been suggested. First you must remember that Catholics are governed by the laws of the Church as well as the civil law.

About a century ago, the Catholic Church was concerned that the increasing mobility of the people meant that Catholics were meeting different church practices around the world, and sought to unify the various customs and practices. In 1908, it issued a document 'Ne temere' that set out rules and practices for Marriage in the Catholic Church. Just as in civil law, it laid down the rules for notice of marriage, and various conditions about who could solemnise marriage, etc.

One of the rules was that to receive the sacrament of Marriage, a person must show that s/he was eligible to be married in a Catholic church. The priest who was to solemnise the marriage has to see a Certificate of Freedom to Marry from each of the parties. This Certiificate is a recent copy of the entry in the baptism register for that person, with any annotations. If both parties produced their Certificate, the marriage would go ahead. Then the priest who had solemnised the marriage had to send the details of the marriage back to the church of baptism, where the Parish Priest has to record these details against the baptism entry of the person. The next time that person wants to get married in a Catholic church, s/he has to produce a Certificate of Freedom to Marry. This time it will include the details of the first marriage, and so the second marriage will not be able to go ahead, unless evidence of the death of the first spouse is produced. If the marriage does go ahead, then details of the second marriage together with information about the death of the first spouse will be sent to the Parish of Baptism and recorded against the baptism entry.

Some churches had special forms printed for this purpose, and some contained a 'get-out clause' - "as far as is known to this Parish" and very occasionally you may find a certificate of freedom to marry or notice of details of the marriage, loose in a marriage register, but generally they were destroyed after the details were entered in the Baptism Register. This rule is applied worldwide. I had to chase these documents when my daughter was married in Madrid and I have seen entries in Catholic Marriage Registers in Bury from all over the world, as well as entries for people who were baptised in the church whre they married.

This practice is very useful for family historians as it indicates where you might find baptisms of the next generation. Sadly there is no matching entry in the Marriage Register to indicate where the parties were baptised.

The other point that may be of interest is that St Robert Church, Longsight, was closed in 2004 and later demolished.

Hope this helps

Jim Lancaster (Bury, Lancs.)

[barbara lee]

Thanks Jim, a far more scholarly explanation than mine. It was even more rigorous than I had imagined.

My grandmother had an incorrect marriage entered against her baptism entry, which was later crossed out. She was Catherine Donohoe baptised St Augustine's RC Liverpool 30 Jan 1886. There was also another, older, Catherine Donohoe, no relation, who had been baptised 10 years earlier and who married a Ralph Fowler in Bootle in 1910. The details of that marriage were incorrectly written against MY Catherine Donohoe's baptism. I imagine there must have been quite a fuss when my Catherine went to get a "Freedom to Marry" certificate. But if you look at her baptism entry you will see the Ralph Fower marriage details crossed out and the correct marriage details entered. No corresponding entry was made against the older Catherine's baptism, where they should have been in the first place.

Barbara

[Dizzy600]

Thank you Jim.

It is certainly a good source to persue! Well worth looking into for that elusive marriage if they are catholic. It raises an interesting point about Army marriages in countries like India etc where baptisms couldn't be verified.

What a shame the church has been demolished but I will have a look online for a photo.

Barbara, your grandmother must have been distraught at the finding initially.. glad that it all worked out in the end.

Thank you both again.

Regards
Karen

[lancaster.jim]

Hi, Karen,

I have just realised that I missed part of your post, where you wrote

> Also, is it unusual for a boy just to have a 'godmother' and not a 'godfather'?

The Catholic Church requires only one sponsor (God-parent) though two are customary. They should be Catholics in good standing with regard to their Faith and old enough to be capable of undertaking the duties that they accept as a Sponsor. If there are more, the extras are regarded by the Church as witnesses and are not expected to commit themselves to the duties.

Hope this helps

Jim Lancaster (Bury, Lancs.)

[Dizzy600]

Thanks again Jim that has cleared up all the points.

Regards
Karen