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  1. #1
    Thomasin
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    Default New Year challenge for Mutley!

    On June 4th 1876 Thomas Jones (20) married Elizabeth Todd (17) at St Mary, Lambeth. The address on the marriage certificate was East Street for both of them, and in 1881 Thomas Jones’s family were still at 39 East Street, Lambeth. Elizabeth’s father was George Todd, a cooper, and the marriage was witnessed by Elizabeth Todd.

    I believe this to be Elizabeth’s family in 1871:

    George Todd 43 Dry Cooper b. Bethnal Green
    Elizabeth Todd 37 Tailoress b. St George’s East
    Elizabeth 12 b. Spitalfields
    Eleanor 6 b. Spitalfields

    32 Preston St, Stepney
    RG10; 513; 74; 23 (record held by TNA, Crown Copyright)

    I found a death of George Todd in December quarter 1874, aged 48, Whitechapel, and here is the remainder of his family in 1881:

    Elizabeth Todd Widow 46 Tailoress b. Commercial Rd, Middlesex
    Elenoar (sic) 15 b. Spitalfields
    Kate 9 b. Whitechapel

    57 Queen Ann St, Whitechapel
    RG11; 442; 78; 13 (record held by TNA, Crown Copyright)

    Kate was, I believe, Kate Coulson Todd, b. June quarter 1871, Whitechapel. Her middle name is useful, as I shall reveal later.

    There is an October 21st 1862 marriage at Christ Church, Spitalfields, for George Todd (34), a cooper, and Elizabeth Barclay (28). George’s father was John Todd, mariner, and Elizabeth’s father was James Barclay, mariner. The address for both parties was given as 9 Fashion St, and one of the witnesses was Emma Adams.

    Emma Adams was George’s married sister. She married Jabez Adams on June 12th 1853 in Bethnal Green. Her address was 20 Foster St, and her father was John Todd, mariner. One of the witnesses was Maria Todd, who seems to have been Emma and George’s mother.

    The 1851 census shows this family:

    John Todd 57 Seaman b. City of London
    Maria Todd 57 b. Cambridgeshire
    George 23 Porter b. Bethnal Green
    Emma 16 b. Bethnal Green

    20 Foster Street, Bethnal Green
    HO107; 1541; 171; 5 (record held by TNA, Crown Copyright)

    The 1841 census has some oddities:

    Maria Todd 47
    John 23 (sic) Labourer
    George 13
    Emma 61 (sic) that’s what it says, but maybe 6?

    Foster Street, Bethnal Green
    HO107; 691; 10/18; 3 (record held by TNA, Crown Copyright)

    In 1861:

    John Todd 66 Labourer b. Cambridge
    George Todd 23 (misheard? It has to be 33) b. Bethnal Green

    20 Foster Street, Bethnal Green
    RG09; 258; 86; 48 (record held by TNA, Crown Copyright)

    Where was Maria? I tracked her down, visiting Emma:
    Jabez Adams 28 Cabinet maker b. Maldon, Essex
    Emma Adams 26 b. Mile End
    Emma 5
    Jabez 2
    George C 2 months
    Maria Todd 67 Laundress b. Waterbeach Cambs

    43 Brunswick St, Shoreditch
    RG09; 249; 115; 16 (record held by TNA, Crown Copyright)

    Baby George was George Coulson Adams, b. March quarter 1861, Shoreditch.

    The birthplace of John Todd was given once as City of London and once as Cambridgeshire, while that of Maria is consistently Cambridgeshire, specifically Waterbeach. Looking at the IGI, I found Maria Coulson (remember that name?) who was christened on 9th January 1794 (right age) at Waterbeach, Cambs. This is a submitted entry, but I don’t think I can ignore it.

    Meanwhile, George and Elizabeth Todd had a daughter Maria Jane, b. June 12, bap. at St Matthews, Bethnal Green, July 12 1863. George was a cooper, and the address was Fashion St. The very next baptism entry may be a coincidence, but – Elizabeth Barclay, b. Sept 4 1858, bap. July 12 1862, daughter of Louis and Elizabeth Barclay, Fashion St, no occupation given.

    Where is all this going? It’s all about the identity of ‘my’ Elizabeth Todd, my great grandmother in the first line of this post. Daughter of George Todd, a cooper.

    This is where it all goes wrong.

    In June quarter 1856 a George Todd, cooper, married Sarah Valler at St George the Martyr, Southwark. They were both of full age, their addresses were Borough, and George’s dad is given as George Todd, steward. The witnesses were Wm Stead and Prudence D Dunn. This might be the George who was baptised at St John Horsleydown in 1832, son of George and Elizabeth (yes, another one), the father being a ‘mariner’.

    George and Sarah definitely produced a daughter Elizabeth Todd, b. 18th August 1859 at 2 West Ferry Road, Millwall (Poplar). Mother Sarah Todd formerly Valler, father Cooper journeyman. I began to surmise that George’s marriage to Elizabeth was a second one, especially when I found the death of a Sarah Todd in 1859 – but the Millwall Todd family was still intact in 1861, George, Sarah, George and Elizabeth, and still at 2 West Ferry Road. In 1871 there were two more sons, and they were living in Poplar.

    So my question is: do I have the right family? That is, father George and mother Elizabeth, and why can’t I find little Elizabeth’s birth/baptism?

    Thomasin

  2. #2
    gasser
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    So my question is: do I have the right family? That is, father George and mother Elizabeth,and why can’t I find little Elizabeth’s birth/baptism?
    Have you checked this entry on free BMD?
    Sept qtr. 1859 Todd Elizabeth reg. Poplar vol 1c page 610

  3. #3
    Thomasin
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    Yes, gasser. I was sure it was my Elizabeth and sent for the birth certificate, but she was the daughter of George and Sarah.

    Thomasin

  4. #4
    Mutley
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    Wow!

    The family descend on me tomorrow for two weeks, I have to do the boring things, making beds and cooking dinners. Ugh!

    But there is some excitement too.
    Norad on Christmas Eve,
    Carols played on You Tube (Bing and Bowie is my favourite)
    Midnight Mass on the Internet (Load of choices)
    Stockings for the kids on Christmas morning
    We will celebrate Portuguese style on Christmas day and English on Boxing day.
    On New Year's Eve there are miles of fireworks right along the coast.

    But I'll be back after, I am now subscribed to this thread and will attempt to do my bit in the New Year.

    Have a wonderful time during the holidays and I will see you soon.

  5. #5
    Knowledgeable and helpful Jellylegs's Avatar
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    Hi Thomasin

    On Ancestry London, England Marriages and Banns, there is a marriage of an Elizabeth TODD (24) to a James Morrison (or Merrison) STOUT (29) on 08 May 1884 at St. Luke, Millwall.

    Elizabeth's father is George TODD, a cooper. Witnesses were George TODD, Emma COPPING (or Lopping), Harold John STOUT and George *?* TODD.

    I think it says that both Elizabeth and James are Music Sellers. I would think that this is the family from Millwall.

    So, if Thomas Jones is your G. Grandfather (hope I'm reading your post correctly), then I think the Elizabeth TODD that he married is Elizabeth BARCLAY, daughter of Elizabeth BARCLAY.

    Both Elizabeth's can be found in the 1861 census on Ancestry RG9; Piece 266; Folio 22; Page 4 (record held by TNA, Crown Copyright). Elizabeth (22) a widow and a tailoress and Elizabeth (2) - both born Spitalfields. They are transcribed as BARCKLEY (which is how it is on the original).

    Jellylegs

  6. #6
    Knowledgeable and helpful Jellylegs's Avatar
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    Freebmd has Elizabeth BARCLAY birth - Sep Q 1858, Whitechapel, Vol 1c , Page 325. Spitalfields is a sub-district of Whitechapel.

    Jellylegs

  7. #7
    Thomasin
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    Hi Jellylegs

    Thank you for your comments. I agree that the first family you mention is the Millwall one. As for the Barclays you have found, there is possibly a connection, because 9 Fashion Street has cropped up again, but just at this moment I can't work it out - it's too late! I only know that Todd married Barclay and Jones married Todd.

    Why did they call them all Elizabeth?

    Thomasin

  8. #8
    Colin Rowledge
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mutley View Post
    Wow!

    The family descend on me tomorrow for two weeks, I have to do the boring things, making beds and cooking dinners. Ugh!

    But there is some excitement too.
    Norad on Christmas Eve,
    Carols played on You Tube (Bing and Bowie is my favourite)
    Midnight Mass on the Internet (Load of choices)
    Stockings for the kids on Christmas morning
    We will celebrate Portuguese style on Christmas day and English on Boxing day.
    On New Year's Eve there are miles of fireworks right along the coast.

    But I'll be back after, I am now subscribed to this thread and will attempt to do my bit in the New Year.

    Have a wonderful time during the holidays and I will see you soon.
    Merry Christmas and all the best in 2010

    Colin

  9. #9
    Thomasin
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    Merry Christmas Mutley and Colin - and everybody!

    Jellylegs - I think the George ? Todd on the marriage certificate is George Harwood Todd. In 1883 he married Edith Hodge. He was a police constable, as was Edith's father, and E S Todd was a witness. Was this his sister Elizabeth - probably Elizabeth Sarah? On the 1891 census, born in Deptford, George H now has two children. Still - I'm pretty sure that's the wrong lot of Todds.

    I've just been talking to my aunt, who was born in 1921 and actually KNEW the Elizabeth we are looking for. Knew her very well, in fact, and she told me all sorts of things she had done. I wanted to know when she died, and Auntie D said that it was when she herself was 16, therefore 1937. She was 84, which works out to a birthdate of 1853. Now there was an Elizabeth Todd born in Whitechapel, September quarter 1852, 1c 328. I wonder whether I should send for that certificate. However, I can't find a death anywhere near 1937.

    Thomasin

  10. #10
    Knowledgeable and helpful Jellylegs's Avatar
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    Hi Thomasin

    Merry Christmas to you. Have you had a lot of snow? Here in Maidstone it is quite bad!

    Anyway, back to the Todd's. There is a baptism on Ancestry of an Elizabeth TODD, on 24.10.1852 (birth date 15.09.1852) at St. Andrew Holburn, City of London. Parents are James and Eliza TODD. James is a Hawker and their abode is listed as Bedford Street. Could this be the one you found in Whitechapel?

    Jellylegs

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