Double whammy cousin marry or what!

[esdel]

Thomas Rous was born Abt. 1786 in Benhall, Suffolk (1851 census); he married Ann Rouse in 1809 in Benhall, Suffolk and we know all about him.

But the OTHER Thomas Rous, who conspired to marry on the SAME day (same witnesses) is a complete brick wall.

Please can someone tell us who he is?

The double marriage at Benhall details are:

Thomas Rous of this parish, single man Entry 38
and Ann Rouse of the same, single woman
were married at this chuirch by licence on 20 June 1809
by me John Whinfield, curate
(Ann signs her name Anne very prominent final e on Rouse)
Witnesses Thomas Rous and Hannah Rous

Same witnesses: next wedding Entry 39
Thomas Rous of this parish, single man
and Lettice Rous of the same, single woman
were married at this chuirch by banns on 20 June 1809
by me John Whinfield, curate
(Lettice signs with her mark: clearly no e on Rous)
Witnesses Thomas Rous and Hannah Rous

many thanks with this mystery
esdel

[Marie C..]

Cousins I would think.
My Rous lot were the same .... the sons married and had children with all the same names so you get umpteen Thomas, John, Mary, Elizabeth, Susannah etc etc.
So you have Thomas Rous(say, son of John) marrying a cousin Ann or some other Rous/Rouse/Rowse relative and Thomas Rous(son of Thomas, brother to above John) marrying Lettice. Same witnesses as the first one as somehow related.
(Rous must have been like Smith!)
If you can see the parish register for Benhall then maybe you can work out who the other Thomas was.
Marie

[esdel]

Cousins I would think.
My Rous lot were the same .... the sons married and had children with all the same names so you get umpteen Thomas, John, Mary, Elizabeth, Susannah etc etc.
So you have Thomas Rous(say, son of John) marrying a cousin Ann or some other Rous/Rouse/Rowse relative and Thomas Rous(son of Thomas, brother to above John) marrying Lettice. Same witnesses as the first one as somehow related.
(Rous must have been like Smith!)
If you can see the parish register for Benhall then maybe you can work out who the other Thomas was.
Marie

Thanks Marie, Yes I am having a real battle with the Rous and their totally unimaginative "me too" names - all married to Mary or Hannah(= Anne often)
It was during this battle we got the handwritten docs from Benhill church - but it tells us nothing about the "other" Thomas at all (except "From Benhill and married Lettice")

Must have been close friends from childhood
But in my tree of many Rous there is not a single Lettice!

If the docs from Benhill might help you in any way, please let me know (Legibility is too poor to post a copy here)
esdel

[Marie C..]

Lettice was often used for Letitia.... and one John Rous of Henham Hall had a daughter Letitia Rous sometime in the 15or1600's. And you know how names run in Rous families.
I live in hopes that our Rous family (from Stradbroke)may be connected to that lot. It would make a change from ag labs and gardeners!
Marie

[pottoka]

How strange that you have come up against a brickwall with two men named Thomas Rous, possibly related, from the same village, who married on the same day.

And who were married by a curate named Whinfield, who are my bugbear family, all living in the same small village, all with the same first names, intermarrying and with no notes from the vicar or the curate as to which Ann or Elizabeth Winfield was marrying which Thomas or George Winfield. There was one Thomas Winfield who married three times, each time a Hannah, but it's anyone's guess which one they each were.

And I would so much like to know if my great x 3 grandfather (twice over) was William Winfield born in 1767 or his cousin William Winfield born in 1768

If you can see the parish register for Benhall then maybe you can work out who the other Thomas was.
Marie

I've got the parish records for my Winfield village and made a tree to sort them all out, but it's beyond me. There are too many of them with the same name and of the same age and, the further back I get, the more couples pop up in the village from somewhere else. All I was asking for was a nice neat tree leading back to Adam and Eve Winfield, not a flippin' baobab with its roots in the air and suckers and sprouts all over the place!

[esdel]

Absolutely spot on, Pottoka!
Just how MANY of your Whinfields were curates at Benhall, Suffolk?

Like you I have thousands of candidates for my Rous/Rouse tree.
they are all called John, Thomas, Mary and Ann and are referred to in the wills as "My cousin Anne's daughter Hannah's son Thomas."

Do any of these villages ring a bell with you:
Benhall, Westleton, Middleton, Wrentham, Wangford, Dunwich, Theberton, Peasenhall, Badingham, Brundish, Worlingworth

If we could help one another, that would be splendid!
esdel

[Rachandgarry]

I wish I could offer some advice on this, but I am much more of a beginner than any of you - I just wanted to say that I laughed at the sarcasm in the posts, and do sympathise with your situations. Geneology is so addictive, and the goal becomes almost paramount in your life - then you hit a brick wall like this and wham, the whole thing is over (or at least that is how it feels!)

Good luck in your searches...

[Geoffers]

Some thoughts...........

The 1851 census has a Lettice ROUS aged 61 bn Benhall who appears to be a possible match.

HO107/1802 f649 p19
Benhall
Sarah ROUS, hd, wid, 91, annuitant, bn Blythburgh
Lettice Rous, relative, widow, 61, housekeeper, bn Benhall
Louisa NOLLER, relative, 13, bn Middleton
Margaret Rous, relative, 5, bn Westleton

Lettice was living with William NOLLAR , aged 35, a butcher, and several others of the same surname in Middleton in 1841. HO107/1016/5 f4 p2.

The Sarah Rous aged 91, in Benhall in 1851, looks like she is with family in 1841:

HO107/1017/9 f6 p4 - Chat Court, Westleton. She is there with a 30 year old James ROUS, farmer and also a Thomas ROUS aged 55 - occupation 'Register D + B' - I wonder if he is the husband of Lettice?

A quick glance at the 1841 and 1851 census shows a lot of Rous families who appear to have a connection (is your chap at Debach in 1851? - HO107/1801 f813 p5 - did he marry by licence because of his wife's age?) - including several called Thomas ROUS(E) who ere born arond he same time, so it is possible that this is a family name.

Without being able to answer the question directly, many of these people do seem to famers, butchers, etc and may well have left wills which will help to clarify a possibly confusing record of similar names within parish records.

Does any paperwork relating to the marriage by licence survive? If so, who was the bondsman?

Does the banns register record any additional information to identify the Thomas who wed then?

Do the Land Tax returns help to show how many ROUSE families were living in Benhall and the area at the end of the 18th century?

[esdel]

Some thoughts...........

The 1851 census has a Lettice ROUS aged 61 bn Benhall who appears to be a possible match.

HO107/1802 f649 p19
Benhall
Sarah ROUS, hd, wid, 91, annuitant, bn Blythburgh
Lettice Rous, relative, widow, 61, housekeeper, bn Benhall
Louisa NOLLER, relative, 13, bn Middleton
Margaret Rous, relative, 5, bn Westleton

Lettice was living with William NOLLAR , aged 35, a butcher, and several others of the same surname in Middleton in 1841. HO107/1016/5 f4 p2.

The Sarah Rous aged 91, in Benhall in 1851, looks like she is with family in 1841:

HO107/1017/9 f6 p4 - Chat Court, Westleton. She is there with a 30 year old James ROUS, farmer and also a Thomas ROUS aged 55 - occupation 'Register D + B' - I wonder if he is the husband of Lettice?

A quick glance at the 1841 and 1851 census shows a lot of Rous families who appear to have a connection (is your chap at Debach in 1851? - HO107/1801 f813 p5 - did he marry by licence because of his wife's age?) - including several called Thomas ROUS(E) who ere born arond he same time, so it is possible that this is a family name.

TREMENDOUS Geoffers, BRILLIANT

Yes your data on the 91 year old Sarah fits and has led me to identify her as the Sarah Day who married Thomas Rous on 10 Sep 1784 at Westleton.
It sems Sarah died that same census year. I had two dates for her birth at Westleton 1764 and 1767. But when you are 91+ you can ber forgiven if you are 2 or even 6 years wrong!
The fact she outlived them all adds great strength to her identity as the right Sarah.

But it gets BETTER, Geoffers!
Thanks to you it is now certain I got my two Thomas (married same day, same witnesses) mixed up.
I am now specially keen for anything you may be able to find out about the other Thomas - the one who married Ann (signs her name Anne and it may be Hannah) and she is very careful to add an e on the end of Rouse. (So the two double-witnesses not her side of the family?)
Thanks to you we are very near establishing how the two Thomas are related. It seems the one who married Anne was born in about 1786 at Benhall; no parents identified as yet.
Many thanks
esdel

Without being able to answer the question directly, many of these people do seem to famers, butchers, etc and may well have left wills which will help to clarify a possibly confusing record of similar names within parish records.

Does any paperwork relating to the marriage by licence survive? If so, who was the bondsman?

Does the banns register record any additional information to identify the Thomas who wed then?

Do the Land Tax returns help to show how many ROUSE families were living in Benhall and the area at the end of the 18th century?

Yes I am fighting my way through Wills this week!
How do I find banns informstion and land tax returns?
many thanks
esdel

[Geoffers]

Yes I am fighting my way through Wills this week!
How do I find banns informstion and land tax returns?

Banns - a separate register is kept of banns read in each parish. It should be held by the county record. Banns registers don't often provide a great deal of additional detail, but occasionally they include something not found in marriage registers.

Land Tax Returns. Held at The National Archives in IR23 -
"This series consists mainly of an enumeration of all occupiers and owners of property in England and Wales subject to Land Tax, prepared as a consequence of the Act 38 Geo. III, c. 60."

Those for Suffolk are held in
IR23/82 - folios 1-303
IR23/83 - folios 307-567
IR23/84 - folios 568-815

You should also find records for a paricular county held in the local record office