Family Crest Mystery

[allyj50]

I have in my possession a gilded plate from the Victorian period made by London & Ryder from 17 New Bond Street, London in 1864.

There is a family crest on the front of the plate. I have no idea whose it is. We have been advised to try and find the family as it will help with the identification of the plate hopefully and the value could rise if it is a significant victoriana family.

The crest show 3 distinct features: The crown, the lion and the shield standing on what is called "the wreath" (looks like a twisted barber's pole)

coronet crown - the actual band looks as if it has 6 stones or circles in the band - above it 3 stars - 1 star either side which is 4 pointed but 2 points at the top an 2 at the bottom - star in the middle is 6 points - 3 on the top an 3 on the bottom. So not a true star as we would say, reminds me of how a child might draw a star. The ones either side remind me of an insect shape wings.

Underneath is a lion "passant"
the lion is looking to the left (dexter) - has 3 legs on the ground and 1 leg raised and bent over a shield with a cross in the middle. The cross is like one drawn as the cross of jesus. it doesn't touch the outer line of the shield, rather the cross is in the middle of the shield which is pointed . The shield is lying to the right under the left leg and the point / bottom of the shield is almost touching the lion's right leg.

The lion's tail is up in the air with the end curved over its bottom and the end
of the tail flicked over back over its bottom. The end of the tail looks like a snake's head with the mouth open.

The lion's mouth is open with the tongue straight out of its mouth looking to the left (dexter)

The lion and shield is lying on a "wreath" which is long and twisted suggesting maybe different colours - similar to a barber's pole desgin.


What type of victoriana family might own a plate of this kind and have a crest on? Does anyone recognise the crest or can give me some more details about it?

Cheers
Ally x

[Procat]

Hi Ally,

It might be easier if you can post a photo of it on photobucket then linking to it. See this thread for assistance linking the image to the forum.

[MythicalMarian]

the lion is looking to the left (dexter)

The lion's mouth is open with the tongue straight out of its mouth looking to the left (dexter)

Dexter is right - Sinister is left.

[birdlip]

The College of Arms should be able to identify it for you.

[michaelpipe]

If this is just the Crest that you are describing, then it is highly unlikely that it can be identified. If you know what the entire coat of arms are, then it might be possible.

As Birdlip says, the College of Arms may help - their minimum charge for anything is £100, (or was the last time I had a simple search undertaken).

[birdlip]

their minimum charge for anything is £100, (or was the last time I had a simple search undertaken).

Aaaargh...I had no idea it would be that much!

[allyj50]

If this is just the Crest that you are describing, then it is highly unlikely that it can be identified. If you know what the entire coat of arms are, then it might be possible.

As Birdlip says, the College of Arms may help - their minimum charge for anything is £100, (or was the last time I had a simple search undertaken).

Their quote was £400.
I am still reeling from the shock of it.
I expected to pay, but not that much and there is no saying that they will be able to identify it either.

I don't know what the coat of arms is but the description I have given is how I have viewed it. I do have photographs of it with the flash off but it is still difficult to see it.

My apologies for getting dexter and sinster wrong - its the opposite of course - someone else had given me those terms and I didnt think to check them because the person was a language student.

There are no colours either as its engraved onto the gilded plate which I have been told is victorian silver - made in 1964 - London hall mark and is gilded silver. We have 6 plates in total - dinner size ones. We have been advised to take them to auction but if we can find out who the crest belongs to would help the auctioneers to give us a value.

The plates were made by London Ryder from 17 new bond street london. Also scratched on the back off them is 99/3. We are assuming this might be how many were made and what number the plate is. I know that London Ryder closed their shop in 1940.

AJ x

[michaelpipe]

If you can find this book in a library, you might just see something similar:

"Fairbairn's Crests of the families of Great Britain & Ireland" - compiled by James Fairbairn, (first published London, 1860; most recent edition 1990)

I had this book but I left it in England, and all I have are a few copies of pages that are of interest to myself, so I can’t help.

Good Luck

[MythicalMarian]

Having read through the description of your lion again, I don't think it is too fanciful to say that it could be more of an institutional badge rather than that of a family.

Ally, when you got mixed up with your dexters and sinisters - are you meaning that the lion is looking straight out towards the left (i.e. that should have been sinister) or is he looking over his shoulder to the right (i.e. dexter)?

This is important, because there are very very few lions who look over their shoulders in crests - and I certainly do know of a family who displayed such a lion, but the St. George's cross on the shield (if that's what it is) is throwing me a bit. Such a pity you can't post a picture.

[allyj50]

If you can find this book in a library, you might just see something similar:

"Fairbairn's Crests of the families of Great Britain & Ireland" - compiled by James Fairbairn, (first published London, 1860; most recent edition 1990)

I had this book but I left it in England, and all I have are a few copies of pages that are of interest to myself, so I can’t help.

Good Luck

Its available online now because the acutal book is out of print. And yes I have looked at it. Have checked carefully - there were parts of some images that were like mine but nothing that was it as a whole. Took me the best part of 4 or 5 hours.

Ally x