Somewhere around, I read that the Normans often adopted as surnames the names of towns or villages where they settled/occupied.
Has anyone heard of a family name being duplicated, because there were two villages, miles apart, with the same name?
I ask because I found an archived mortgage document dated 1700s with the name of a place in Shropshire that is my family name, but it doesn't show up on any old maps.
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Thread: When Normans Adopted Names
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29-09-2009, 3:18 PM #1CarmyGuest
When Normans Adopted Names
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29-09-2009, 3:29 PM #2
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29-09-2009, 3:50 PM #3CarmyGuest
Hi Anna. The place is Crompton.
Until recently, all my information pointed to Lancashire being the origin of the family, because there was a village named Crompton. Yesterday, browsing through known ancestry in Wales, I came across a 1784 archive mentioning someone who lived in Crompton, Shropshire. (Name was Edward Frank, no family connection.) When I searched Crompton, Shropshire I came up with a load of information on people who may or may not be related. Their records date back to the 1500s with a possible connection to French/Norman pre 1066 (via the name Fowlkes). Unfortunately, none of the old maps I've searched showed the village name.
Somehow, because of the proximity of Shropshire to Wales, it makes more sense than Lancashire. Plus, I haven't been able to make any connection between my family and those with the same name in Lancashire. We're all in Wales with the exception of one born in London.
Any help appreciated.
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29-09-2009, 7:44 PM #4GeoffersGuestOriginally Posted by Carmy
Crompton may be a partial name of a lost manor/village. It may now be in a different county.
When I searched Crompton, Shropshire I came up with a load of information on people who may or may not be related. Their records date back to the 1500s
Searches you might try include Access to Archives, Shropshire Archives online catalogue, Domesday; perhaps TNA's documentsonline for PCC wills?
I found an archived mortgage document dated 1700s with the name of a place in Shropshire
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30-09-2009, 12:39 AM #5CarmyGuest
Hi Geoffers.
It's true, the village may be lost. Also, the Shropshire border changed over the years, sometimes parts of the shire were in Wales, and the area was one part of Mercia. I've checked every site I can think of, including lost villages, and come up blank.
Crompton and variations like Crumpton are all described as "crooked house" or "crooked manor", although in one place I found it is supposed to mean "by a well".
This is the entry found via the National Library of Wales:
1784, May 14-15
1 Richard Colley the elder of Cletterwood, co. Mont., farmer 2 Edward Frank of Crompton , Shropshire, gent. 3 Andrew Adams of Leegomery, p. Wellington, Shropshire, gent. 4 William Coupland the younger of the town of Shrewsbury, gent. MORTGAGE (LEASE AND RELEASE) from 1 to 4 of a m. called Cletterwood in p. BUTTINGTON [now p. TREWERN], co. Mont. (in pursuance of a bond (11 Oct. 1780) by which 1 was bound to 2 in £483.8.0 for the repayment of £240.14.0, and which 2 assigned to 3, and of a judgment obtained upon it) to secure £ 185.0.8 + interest.
https://isys.llgc.org.uk/isysquery/irlc45a/22/doc
Alas, when I try to Google the link, nothing comes up, but I know I was on a hunt through/via the NLW at the time.
From my research of the last couple of days, Shropshire was of great interest to the Normans and some of King William,s family lived in the area. I'm not saying my family was related to the king, just that there was a lot of Norman involvement in the area.
I'll continue the hunt, and I'll check for the earliest dates of Cromptons in Lancashire. According to one place on A****, in 1891 all the Cromptons lived in Lancashire. I know that isn't true. Unless my grandfather was a figment of my imagination.
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30-09-2009, 6:22 AM #6
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Like Geoffers, I don't think the Normans really come into it.
Don't ignore the possibility that the catalogue entry you found may be wrong. For example A2A has references to an Edward Frank of Crumpwell or Crompwell in the parish of Oswestry .
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30-09-2009, 7:25 AM #7GeoffersGuestOriginally Posted by Carmy
However, in a border area it would not surprise me if this was a combined Anglo-Welsh word.
This is the entry found via the National Library of Wales:
1784, May 14-15
1 Richard Colley the elder of Cletterwood, co. Mont., farmer 2 Edward Frank of Crompton , Shropshire, gent
Edward Frank of Crumpwell
Edward Frank of Crompwell
From my research of the last couple of days, Shropshire was of great interest to the Normans
According to one place on A****, in 1891 all the Cromptons lived in Lancashire
To go back to your original question of names being duplicated from different places........Place names are descriptive, as an example 'Crompton' - I can envisage many farms existing by bends in a river; many of which farms no longer exist - many people who either became known as 'John of Crompton' and then 'John Crompton' because of where they lived. Also many unrelate people who moved away from a farmstead and became known by their place of origin.
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30-09-2009, 1:12 PM #8CarmyGuest
Many thanks Peter and Geoffers.
I ran some more searches on the NLW archives last night and was amazed how much information iin there relates to Shropshire. Maybe I should post something on the Shropshire board to let people know they should check it out when they research the area. Many of the archives have to do with land rents and tenancy, not unusual in a farming community, and the records go back to the 13th century. It was fascinating to read about masters awarding their servants things like a pair of white gloves annually. It made these people very real.
I began to wonder if the entry I quoted had a misplaced comma. Mistranscription is also a real possibility because I've found spelling errors in my own family records posted on the Internet. And I find spelling errors in the records I'm sent to transcribe. Proofreading is becoming a lost art, and I'm as guilty as everyone else.
Yes, there would have been farms everywhere that could easily be built crooked or had fallen that way over the years. I guess they eventually fell all the way over and were lost.
I'll continue with the Welsh research (now linking back to the 1500s) and, just maybe, one of these days I'll find a reference to either Shropshire or Lancashire.
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30-09-2009, 1:18 PM #9GeoffersGuestOriginally Posted by Carmy
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30-09-2009, 1:28 PM #10CarmyGuest
Thanks Geoffers. I didn't even think of that. I had a vision of a thatched roof and daub-and-wattle walls all akilter. It explains why one description of the name mentioned "by a well" or "by water".
By the way, when I mentioned Norman involvement in Shropshire, I meant King William's own family. There are several references to his brother and niece in the Shropshire pages.
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