Please could you help me date this photo?

[carolyn649]

This is all looking very positive! It is the only photo i have that could possibly them so it would be wonderful to confirm it. It was only from seeing the resemblance to his daughter in later years that I came up with the idea that it could be him.

I am sorry, I am not very clued up on these things - is there an earlier White's History, Gazetteer and Directory available that I could search for, in the hope that i can find Sherborn in business a little earlier perhaps?

Thanks Thomasin for looking for me - it all helps. I feel quite excited that I might have found him

[Browneyes]

You might think I'm daft thinking about the connection to the horse and it may not be specifically relevant to the photo but I'll tell you what I was thinking anyway.

You said your ggg grandparents lived in France and that their daughter lived in Newmarket married to Tom Jennings the horse trainer. Gladiateur was a very famous horse born and bred in France and owned by Count de Lagrange but trained by Jennings in Newmarket. In 1865 he won the Triple Crown in England, three weeks later he won the Grand Prix de Paris in France. So the horse travelled between Newmarket and France during that year and was at least back in England for the Ascot Gold Cup in 1866.

It seems possible that the daughter's parents might have attended a race or two in France and perhaps in England if they were able to - if your ggg grandfather was fairly well until he died and they could afford to travel I mean. The photographer is from Newmarket, the daughter and her husband lived in Newmarket so....maybe the object in the gentleman's hand - if the photo is from around that time - is a winning ticket and following celebrations the couple marked the occasion and their visit to England by having their photograph taken. Objects in hands in old photos are generally 'symbolic', sentimental or mark an event etc in some way. The gentleman's expression seems fairly relaxed - that's what makes me think it was an 'event' photo rather than just a regular family picture.

Just my thoughts like I said - one of those possibles but maybe will never know things...

[carolyn649]

I don't think that is daft at all. However, Mary Ann's father had also been an accomplished trainer in France and would have been at every race, both in France & England. It was amazing how often they travelled between the 2 counties all those years ago. I know my mother's grandfather always used to come back to Newmarket to get his suits made! Thomas Carter (my ggg grandfather's brother) went out to France at the request of Lord Henry Seymour in about 1831 & Richard (my ggg grandfather) followed him shortly after. Thomas stayed in France and Richard moved to Belgium as a trainer and then returned to France later. Chantilly became like an English commune in France with all the siblings coming out, all the stablelads brought out from Newmarket etc - the families all intermarried and i have ended up with about 250 ancestors out there - the vast majority of males being great trainers. It was the Carters who started French horse racing (if you are interested take a look at http://www.tbheritage.com/TurfHallma.../Anglais3.html) and it was Tom Carter who taught Tom & Henry Jennings. Anyway, enough about the family and back to the photo. One unwritten rule with the earlier trainers was that they never bet, so it won't be a winning betting ticket but as you say, it must have had some significance! Interestingly, the photo was sent to me by a distant French relative.
Do you perhaps know where I could find more information on his wife's headpiece?

[Browneyes]

Thanks. Sounds like you've done quite alot of research!

rogerco.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/gallery/image84.htm
rogerco.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/gallery/image150.htm
(loads of photos to look through if you go back to original site


marquise.de/en/1800/pics/1800c.shtml

[carolyn649]

Many thanks Browneyes for taking the trouble to help me. Really appreciate it.

[Chris Doran]

Getting a bit closer to the date you want: Henry Sherborn is also living in Newmarket in 1871 (RG10/1596 fo89 p19) as a general photographer, aged 24, but a boarder rather than living at the High St shop. I couldn't find him in 1861.

Looking again at your photo, I note that his name looks as if it's crudely printed (rubber-stamped?), and something above has been scratched out or pasted over. This would be consistent with his having only just started up, as photographers usually had ornate cards printed once established.

[Hugh Thompson]

Hi Carolyn,have you had a look at Fashion Era yet?

http://www.fashion-era.com/index.htm

Hugh.

[carolyn649]

Many thanks for pursuing this Chris. I have written to the owner of the photo in the hope that there might be something on the back that will help. As you say, if he was a photographer in 1871 there is every chance that he was in 1870.

Hugh, that is a great site, thank you for the link. It is going to help with a lot of other photos too. I just need one for French fashion, although they did remain very English over there all that time and still kept English the tradition of tea in the afternoon so perhaps they wore English fashions too.

[carolyn649]

I don't know if anyone is still following this thread but i have just been sent a better scan of the photo and also the back of the photo. I have looked at the various sites you have all kindly directed me to but cannot see a back like this? Could it be late 1860's perhaps?

(I can attach the improved version of the photo if anyone is interested.)

[Browneyes]

Yep still following this thread Carolyn.

Cards with rounded corners started to appear late 1870s onwards so that might indicate yours' is earlier.