Marrying out of the Faith?

[Spangle]

My 3X Great Grandfather, Henry Oppenheim, came from a well known London-Jewish family but he married out of the faith in 1831. His wife was Presbytarean and their daughter, my G G Grandmother, was both Christened and married in a C/E church.

Although it seems that one of his brothers married a close relation of Henry's non-Jewish wife, a couple of his other brothers' children held high office in London's Great Synagogue and the rest of the family also seem to have remained within the Jewish religion. My first thought was that Henry may well have been ostracised by his family for his choices. Is this likely? Does anyone know what the views on marriage out of the faith would have been back then please?

[MythicalMarian]

Hi Spangle - I would think that the fact that a man had married 'out' would be a greater crime to your Jewish ancestors than if a lady had done so, as the Jewish blood is carried down through the mother. So, Henry's children could not be classed as Jewish because he had married a non-Jewish lady. However, if a Jewish daughter had married a non-Jewish man, her children may still be considered Jewish. This is my ham-fisted interpretation of the Mosaic law, but I'm sure any Jewish members will fill in the details on this.

There was always a rumour in my own family (yet to be proved, and I'm still not convinced) that a Jewish lady had married a non-Jewish man and her father disowned her. As we are talking around 1840s/50s, I would imagine that your Henry in 1831 may have faced a similar ostracism. However, when I talked my own situation over with a Jewish friend, she said that children of my Jewish lady would still be regarded as of Jewish blood, even though Dad wasn't Jewish. As for following the religion - that was a different matter.

It seems very complicated to me, and I am sure there were Jewish people in the 1830s who would have been more understanding, just as there are today, but like any religious tug-of-war, your Henry may well have suffered some sort of backlash from his family.

Hopefully, someone with far more expertise in these matters will come along soon to answer your question more fully.

[Astoria]

Just back form the WDYTYA exhibition at Olympia, there was a fantastic Jewish Roots stand and also talks about Jewish research, I'll have a look tomorrow and see if I can find any useful websites for you in my stack of literature.

[Copper]

Anybody who marries out is committing a "crime". In theory the offender should have been cut off. The family act as if the offender were dead.

You may never know what happened as it depends on how the family felt about him marrying out, how orthodox his parents were and perhaps what the community felt about it.

[Ladkyis]

I think Copper has it right. It depends on how orthodox the parents were. If harry's parents were very strict then they would have cut him off and even said the prayer for the dead for him because he would have been dead to them. Another factor has to be that, depending on when his parents arrived here - were they recent immigrants or were they born here - they could be wanting to assimilate into British life and so would not break all contact. Who were the witnesses at the wedding? are they related to the groom or the bride or just people off the street - ah 1831 so not too much information on a marriage register then.
Still it would be interesting to see how close they lived to relatives and if he appears in any of his family's records

[Angelaj]

I was interested to read this thread as I have a gt. gt. grandmother who married in 1888 at age 17 and had two children with her first (Jewish) husband. He disappears, but she later appears on the census with her second 'husband' (they never married) and the children they had together. The two children from the first marriage go to live with their aunt and uncle. The family don't seem to know why this happened but I wonder if it was so they could be brought up in a Jewish household?
The children from the second partner did not follow the Jewish faith although their mother was buied in the Jewish cemetary in Bushey, London under her first married name.
Angelaj

[Spangle]

Blimey! It seems that my Henry wasn't at all popular with his father! I have just purchased the will of Henry senior from the National Archives. Its a beggar to read and I can only make out parts of it, but what I CAN see is that the will, written in 1844, bequeaths gifts to 3 of Henry senior's sons, whom he mentions by name, then adds "ALSO my sons Henry and Samuel"... but he later crossed them out!

Oddly the marriages of Henry junior, to his Presbyterean wife, and of Samuel, to a woman I believe to be a sister to Henry juniors wife, took place BEFORE the old man wrote his will, so it is by no means certain that they were cut out because of marrying out of the faith. What is clear is that they were an afterthought when he first wrote the will so maybe that indicates that he was none too amused by their marriages, considered ignoring them and then thought he had best not. He definately had second thoughts after including them though! Perhaps he deleted their names later as they had upset him in business - I know that Henry junior and Samuel were in partnership at one stage.

Henry mentions giving money to his children for "the ****tion (illegible!) of the National Scot".... any ideas what that might have been? He also mentions his shares in the London and Edinburgh Shipping Company and I know that one son was a Captain and ship owner - could the National Scot have been a vessel?

Poignantly he requests that he has a "plain" funeral and is interred in Abney Park Cemetery - one claiming proudly to be non-denominational and with no religious areas or class boundaries, in an oak coffin with one hearse pulled by two horses, without plumes. I wondered if the latter request was made with respect to his faith - would Jews eschew such fripparies as plumes?

And did he get his wish? I shall probably never know.

And he would never have known that 165 years after he wrote that will, his g g g g grandaughter would be telling strangers across the world via the internet, an invention beyond his dreams, powered by a system yet to be developed, that she hopes so very much that he did.

[Ladkyis]

a funeral in abney park suggests quite a liberal man so perhaps it was for personal reasons that he crossed them out of his will and nothing to do with faith. I hope so. If you want help deciphering will then what I suggest is that you put the images on photobucket or Flickr - there is a thread here
http://www.british-genealogy.com/for...ad.php?t=30819

that explains how to do it. Start a thread with a good heading like
Help me in deciphering a will
and then watch the experts go to work. Sometimes it will take a day or two and sometimes it is done practically before you have finished writing the message!

[MythicalMarian]

Blimey! It seems that my Henry wasn't at all popular with his father! I have just purchased the will of Henry senior from the National Archives. Its a beggar to read and I can only make out parts of it, but what I CAN see is that the will, written in 1844, bequeaths gifts to 3 of Henry senior's sons, whom he mentions by name, then adds "ALSO my sons Henry and Samuel"... but he later crossed them out!

Do you know where Henry and Sam came in the order of children, Spangle? It wasn't uncommon for the elder sons to only receive token legacies in a will, as they were 'already well set up' as it were when Dad died. I have several family wills where the eldest lad is only mention as an afterthought, and in most cases he's married and doing well with his own family.

I'm not saying this is the case here, but it just may be that Henry senior crossed them off as the years went on, knowing they needed nothing further from Dad.

[Spangle]

Do you know where Henry and Sam came in the order of children, Spangle? It wasn't uncommon for the elder sons to only receive token legacies in a will, as they were 'already well set up' as it were when Dad died. I have several family wills where the eldest lad is only mention as an afterthought, and in most cases he's married and doing well with his own family.

I'm not saying this is the case here, but it just may be that Henry senior crossed them off as the years went on, knowing they needed nothing further from Dad.

Well, of the other sons its true that 2 were not married as far as I know and the third cannot be traced - perhaps he died young. The fourth was a master mariner at the time of the will being written so he must have been doing ok and then came Henry and Samuel, both married to Presbytareans so... I dunno.

As far as showing the will here, I am familiar with Photobucket, but try as I might I can't find the PDF file of the will anywhere when I click on the Photobucket link to upload images yet it shows on my Documents and Recent Documents lists on my pc. Flipping computers!!!!