TURNER, CUBITT - a murder mystery

[richard horner]

This new thread has been split from one originally created by Patmac, with the title 'Norfolk Name Interests' on 6 Jan 2005. This new thread was created as it diverging from the original posting.
Geoffers
Moderator, Norfolk boards.


Pat

I would be grateful to know if your CUBITT connections are from WITTON. I am trying to solve a mystery on the Norfolk Transcriptions which show a CUBITT murdered by a John Rudd TURNER in 1831. The mystery is that the said JRT married an Eleanor BROWNE 8 years later. Can you help at all

Regards
Richard

[Geoffers]

I would be grateful to know if your CUBITT connections are from WITTON. I am trying to solve a mystery on the Norfolk Transcriptions which show a CUBITT murdered by a John Rudd TURNER in 1831. The mystery is that the said JRT married an Eleanor BROWNE 8 years later. Can you help at all
Richard

I've corresponded with someone about this in the past (it may well have been yourself).

The 1831 marriage at East Ruston was between Rudd TURNER, *WIDOWER* otp, and Hannah CUBITT, sw, otp. both signed their names. Note that in the register entry the section 'with consent of' (used for marriage of minors) is crossed out

The groom signed his name Rudd Turner. The initial 'R' in his forename and the first 'r' in his surname are quite distinctive.

The 1840 marriage at East Ruston was between John Rudd TURNER, *SINGLEMAN", otp and Hannah CUBITT, sw, otp. John Rudd Turner is recorded as a miller, son of Rudd Turner, miller.

John Rudd Turner signed his name J R Turner. The initial 'R' of his second name and the first 'r' in Turner are different from the signature in Rudd Turner. The signatures as a whole look to be slightly different styles of writing.

The burials of the murder victims took place in a different parish, Worstead. There the entries refer to the burial of "Hannah wife of John Rudd Turner, aged 22, of Witton, and William Turner, 9mth, son of the same. In the margin there is a note reading, "both murdered by the husband and father John Rudd Turner."

East Ruston registers records the burial of Rudd Turner there on 30th April 1832.

John Rudd Turner was baptized at the end of 1812, in 1831 he would have been a minor.

So, the signatures J R Turner and Rudd Turner are different. h CUBITT, sw, otp. John Rudd Turner is recorded as a miller, son of Rudd Turner, miller.

John Rudd Turner signed his name J R Turner. The initial 'R' of his second name and the first 'r' in Turner are different from the signature in Rudd Turner. The signatures as a whole look to be slightly different styles of writing.

The burials of the murder victims took place in a different parish, Worstead. There the entries refer to the burial of "Hannah wife of John Rudd Turner, aged 22, of Witton, and William Turner, 9mth, son of the same. In the margin there is a note reading, "both murdered by the husband and father John Rudd Turner."

East Ruston registers records the burial of Rudd Turner there on 30th April 1832.

John Rudd Turner was baptized at the end of 1812, in 1831 he would have been a minor.

So, the signatures J R Turner and Rudd Turner are different. The section in the first marriage to record the father's name granting consent has been crossed out, yet J R Turner was still a minor. the first marriage records the groom as a widower, yet by marriage two the groom is a singleman.

I think the story has been altered in the telling between parishes. By the time the tale reached Worstead, Rudd Turner has been wrongly recorded as John Rudd Turner. Remove this simple error and things fall into place.


Geoffers
Charlbury, Oxfordshire

[richard horner]

Geoffers

Yes it was indeed myself who asked this question some time ago, unfortunately I didn't receive the reply probably because of either my old firewall or a gremlin in my laptop.
Thank you for the answer, obviously the mystery is who was this supposed JRT? The only other drawback to this discovery is that their is now no skeleton in the fmily (history) cupboard.
Once again very many thanks

regards
Richard

[Geoffers]

[Yes it was indeed myself who asked this question some time ago, unfortunately I didn't receive the reply probably because of either my old firewall or a gremlin in my laptop.

Sorry about that, I can remember typing out a long response - computers are fine when they work; but not so good when the system breaks down.

[Thank you for the answer, obviously the mystery is who was this supposed JRT]

Shame it wasn't just JR, which would have made for a nice message thread - who did JR shoot?? :-))

To me JRT would be the son of RT, both millers - just the message of who dunnit has been confused in the telling - in view of your job and my old job, something we've both come across more than once!

Good luck
Geoffers

[PatMac]

Sorry, haven't a clue as to this murder mystery! Quite interesting stuff, though. Will keep an eye out for a possible Hannah Cubitt fromthe right time frame, even though she was the victim!

[G.V.Ford]

Pat

I would be grateful to know if your CUBITT connections are from WITTON. I am trying to solve a mystery on the Norfolk Transcriptions which show a CUBITT murdered by a John Rudd TURNER in 1831. The mystery is that the said JRT married an Eleanor BROWNE 8 years later. Can you help at all

Regards
Richard

Richard,
Have just seen your messages from last year. Do you still want details on above murders, ie newspaper reports?
Also I see you are interested in Norfolk Horners, Riches & Turners, so am I if Turners are from East Ruston & Horners from Blofield (James Horner/Mary Ann Riches).

Regards
Geoff Ford

[richard horner]

Geoff

Have just returned from Norwich and missed your message.

Have the three cuttingd from the Norfolk Chronicle which tells of this bloody murder. And from all the details that I have of the family I can now reveal as you seem to know that they got it wrong!!!!!

The murderer was Mr RUDD TURNER and not his son JRT they couldn't even get the babies name right as I have the transscription which shows the sons name was William and not George.

In answer to your query concerning HORNER/RICHES yes I am looking into that side of the family as well. James is my GGGfather abd after solving the above the only thing I have still not been able to find is the birth of my GGfather James Francis.


Regards
Richard

[G.V.Ford]

Richard,

Re the murders of Hannah (Cubitt) & son George : You have 3 cuttings from the Norfolk Chronicle, I have 3 cuttings from the Norwich Mercury, probably very much the same but the Mercury refers throughout to the child as George. The Mercury reports finish with the jury returning a verdict that Rudd Turner was insane and that "the prisoner was removed amidst loud murmurs." Do you know what happened to him then? presumable he was put into an asylum, but what was the cause of death later that month? One aspect I don't understand is that the newspapers report Hannah as being about 22 years and "geoffers" says Worstead parish records her age as 22, but according to a Cubitt family tree in a book at the Society of Genealogists she was born in 1794 (dau of Robert Cubitt & Hannah) and this date is in line with her siblings - if that tree is right.

On general Horner matters, you appear to be my wife's second cousin. Her GFather was Frank Horner who took ove was the cause of death later that month? One aspect I don't understand is that the newspapers report Hannah as being about 22 years and "geoffers" says Worstead parish records her age as 22, but according to a Cubitt family tree in a book at the Society of Genealogists she was born in 1794 (dau of Robert Cubitt & Hannah) and this date is in line with her siblings - if that tree is right.

On general Horner matters, you appear to be my wife's second cousin. Her GFather was Frank Horner who took over the watchmaker shop from his father James Francis; I presume your GFather was Horace James (or poss. Robert or George - I don't know if they had children). We don't have James Francis' birth either, other than 1839/40 in Norwich according to census.

We also don't have details of the marriage of James Horner & Mary Ann Riches; can you help?
By the way, we have John Rudd Turner's will. Would you like a transcript?
Would you also like details of Frank Horner's family?
%0r the watchmaker shop from his father James Francis; I presume your GFather was Horace James (or poss. Robert or George - I don't know if they had children). We don't have James Francis' birth either, other than 1839/40 in Norwich according to census.

We also don't have details of the marriage of James Horner & Mary Ann Riches; can you help?
By the way, we have John Rudd Turner's will. Would you like a transcript?
Would you also like details of Frank Horner's family?

Regards
Geoff

[Geoffers]

One aspect I don't understand is that the newspapers report Hannah as being about 22 years and "geoffers" says Worstead parish records her age as 22, but according to a Cubitt family tree in a book at the Society of Genealogists she was born in 1794 (dau of Robert Cubitt & Hannah) and this date is in line with her siblings - if that tree is right.

I've double-checked the register and can confirm that Hannah is recorded as being aged 22.

Hannah married Rudd Turner at East Ruston in 1831 and I think that the person who researched the Cubitt history you found in the SoG has made a basic error by just looking back at East Ruston registers for her baptism.

He/she has found the baptism there in 1794 of Hannah daughter of Robert + Hannah (late Long) and probably assumed that it relates to the marriage in 1831. Granted that marriages usually occurred in the bride's home parish - but this was not a fixed rule and on this occasion it appears to have taken place in the groom's parish (he was bapt there in 1812) where Rudd Turner was established as a miller.

I'd have to wonder why if Hannah was born and married in East Ruston, she was buried at Worstead? I think it is important and it is most likely because she was born there. Worstead registers record two Hannah Cubitts being baptised around the correct time

In 1807 there was Hannah Cubitt daughter of James + Mary (late Long) - but she was buried aged 21 days so that rules her out.

In 1809 though, Worstead register records "Hannah illegitimate daughter of Mary CUBITT was born May 8th and baptised May 1(4?)th 1809."
This would seem the most likely baptism to me.

Geoffers
Charlbury, Oxfordshire

[richard horner]

Geoff (To both or this is going to get confusing)

The first report (6/8/1831) reports in florid terms the double murder. The second dated (31/3/1832) is the arraignment where RT is found to be insane through a visitation of god the third (dated 28/4/1832) refers to the Coroners Inquest at the Asylum which records that RT had been a model inmate and had complained of pains in his head and had requested that he remain in bed which had been agreed. That night he appeared to be improved but the next morning was found dead in his bed and a verdict of death by natural causes was recorded.
The marriage shows that th etwo witnesses were Robert and Mary Ann Cubitt and was performed on 24 May 1830 at East Ruston. I ahve a copy of the parish Register for Worstead (Page 24 Nos 187 and 188) which staes that Hannah wife of JRT was buried with her son WILLIAM on 5 Aug 1831 . The record on the side states "Both murdered by the Husband and Father John Rudd Turner". At the time of the murder JRT would have been 18 and probably learning his trade as a Journeyman Miller. Why he never queried the matter one can only surmise was because he couldn't read? I would certainly like to see a copy of the Will.
In respect of the Horner family I am the grandson of Horace James and my father was Harold Leonard. If you like I will send you a copy of JH and MAR marriage certificate which I found by querying why Edward Riches would visit a person that I could find no connection with in London from Norfolk. I then thought of me being in his shoes why would I go that distance and in view of the fact that the family would be increasing in 1872 I suddenly thought " I would visit my grandson and daughter if they told me that" I therefore looked for a Riches marriage and found that the printer had got the Horner name wrong. i would certainly like deatils of your family and now to leave with another problem what happened to that wonderful person Mary Robertson Horner who has appeared every time I have had a problem and solved it by being the connecting piece in the jigsaw.

To geoffers if we tend to be taking this over do you want us to go direct or start a seperate thread.
regards
Richard

<FONT color=red>What I'll do is split the thread&nbspnly like to see a copy of the Will.
In respect of the Horner family I am the grandson of Horace James and my father was Harold Leonard. If you like I will send you a copy of JH and MAR marriage certificate which I found by querying why Edward Riches would visit a person that I could find no connection with in London from Norfolk. I then thought of me being in his shoes why would I go that distance and in view of the fact that the family would be increasing in 1872 I suddenly thought " I would visit my grandson and daughter if they told me that" I therefore looked for a Riches marriage and found that the printer had got the Horner name wrong. i would certainly like deatils of your family and now to leave with another problem what happened to that wonderful person Mary Robertson Horner who has appeared every time I have had a problem and solved it by being the connecting piece in the jigsaw.

To geoffers if we tend to be taking this over do you want us to go direct or start a seperate thread.
regards
Richard

What I'll do is split the thread and put this into a new thread with a suitable title. Geoffers
Moderator, Norfolk boards.