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  1. #21
    sue norman
    Guest

    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Etchells
    As it happens Two Men in a Trench series mentioned a find of a piece of an early grnade when explaining one of the finds on the Killicrankie dig.
    Apparently they were used in the battle.
    The battle of Killicrankie was where Bonnie Dundee (Bloody Clavers) beat a superior English force (outnumbered 2 to 1).
    The english led by Hugh Mackay though heavily outnumbering the jacobites and out gunning them had poor close quarter armaments and unable to stop the jacobite charge fell victims to the well armed highlanders.
    Cheers
    Guy
    Hi everyone
    I have now got a copy of Thomas Norman's death cetificate which states that he died on 17/11/1915 in Alexandria Hospital Cosham cause of death Pneumonia 6 days.
    Was this hospital a military one?I believe its in Portsmouth.
    I'm sure he did go to France could he have been shipped back due to his illness.Did they used to do that with the soldiers?
    As he is in a cwg surely he must have gone over to France like his brother?
    There is no service number on the death certificate just Sapper Hants Fortress R.E. and a private j Heyes was present at the death.
    Have I come to the end of the line trying to find if Thomas did go to France?
    Would appreciate your comments
    Regards
    Sue

  2. #22
    Geoffers
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sue norman
    I have now got a copy of Thomas Norman's death cetificate which states that he died on 17/11/1915 in Alexandria Hospital Cosham cause of death Pneumonia 6 days.I'm sure he did go to France could he have been shipped back due to his illness.Did they used to do that with the soldiers?
    Yes, soldiers suffering from illness/injury were shipped back to the UK.

    Quote Originally Posted by sue norman
    As he is in a cwg surely he must have gone over to France like his brother?
    Not necessarily - however - the following record in the medal card index has a regimental number very similar to the one you originally posted:

    Medal Card of NORMAN, Thomas P.
    Corps:
    Royal Engineers 105659 Sapper
    Royal Engineers WR252446 Sapper

    Geoffers
    Charlbury, Oxfordshire

  3. #23
    sue norman
    Guest

    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoffers
    Yes, soldiers suffering from illness/injury were shipped back to the UK.

    Not necessarily - however - the following record in the medal card index has a regimental number very similar to the one you originally posted:

    Medal Card of NORMAN, Thomas P.
    Corps:
    Royal Engineers 105659 Sapper
    Royal Engineers WR252446 Sapper

    Geoffers
    Charlbury, Oxfordshire
    Thanks Geoffers
    I,ve looked at the medal card of Thomas P norman and I'm satisfied that hes the one.
    Thanks for your help .Thanks to all
    Cheers
    Sue

  4. #24
    Terry Waters-Marsh
    Guest

    Smile Casulties of War or Sickness

    Sue,

    Illness claimed almost as many lives during WW1 as did battle. In the Middle East, Africa and Mesopotamia more lives were lost to illness than battle - common fatal illnesses included TB, Dysentery, Cholera, Typhoid, Pneumonia and perhaps the worst of all, Malaria. Infections were also a big killer as it was not until WW2 that penicillin and antibiotics started to make their mark.

  5. #25
    sue norman
    Guest

    Default

    Thanks Terry
    What I have thought about since is as Thomas had a young family would his wife have got a pension after his death and when were the medals issued?
    Does anyone know if there are records kept of military hospitals at that time?
    Also could he have got the pneumonia from being gassed wasn't there mustard gas about at that time?
    Sorry for all my questions its just how my brain works!
    Cheers
    Sue

  6. #26
    Terry Reeves
    Guest

    Default Thomas Norman

    Sorry to throw a spanner in the works, but Thomas P Norman cannot be your man. The second number, with the WR prefix, belonged to a man who served with an Inland Waterways, Docks or Railway Company, and in some instances to men serving with Quarrying and Road Companies. The WR prefix was not introduced until 1916-17. If he was entitled to campaign medals, any changes of number would have been noted on his medal index card, starting with his original number.

    2/2nd Hampshire Fortress Company was a second line Territorial Force Unit. With the rapid expansion of the TF just after the outbreak of war, it was necessary to raise new units, and to maintain the local connection, the unit numbers were "fractionalised". The Hampshire Fortress Engineers in fact became 1/7th (Hampshire) Field Company, as part of 28th Division and joined the Divison in France in October 1915. In the same month, 28th Division moved to Egypt and in November 1915, embarked for Salonika. All this, along with the absence of a medal index card bearing his original number, appears to rule out service overseas.

    Fortress Engineers were raised to provide support for the Royal Garrison Artillery at certain defended ports at home and abroad. Regular Army units principally took responsiblity for those ports abroad and Territorial units for those at home. Prior to the war, Hants Fortress Engineers HQ was at Hampshire Terrace, Portsmouth, with drill halls in Portsmouth and Gosport. They provided 3 Works Companies for maintenance of defences, and 4 Electric Light companies. Given his four figure number, it would appear likely that he was a wartime volunteer, joining in 1914/15 and fell victim to injury or illness whilst at home. Your best bet would be to see if his service record still exists at the National Archive at Kew.

    Out of interest, the RE Museum at Chatham does not hold records for individual soldiers.

    If I can help further , please let me know.

    Terry Reeves
    Last edited by Terry Reeves; 24-02-2005 at 10:19 PM.

  7. #27
    sue norman
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Terry Reeves
    Sorry to throw a spanner in the works, but Thomas P Norman cannot be your man. The second number, with the WR prefix, belonged to a man who served with an Inland Waterways, Docks or Railway Company, and in some instances to men serving with Quarrying and Road Companies. The WR prefix was not introduced until 1916-17. If he was entitled to campaign medals, any changes of number would have been noted on his medal index card, starting with his original number.

    2/2nd Hampshire Fortress Company was a second line Territorial Force Unit. With the rapid expansion of the TF just after the outbreak of war, it was necessary to raise new units, and to maintain the local connection, the unit numbers were "fractionalised". The Hampshire Fortress Engineers in fact became 1/7th (Hampshire) Field Company, as part of 28th Division and joined the Divison in France in October 1915. In the same month, 28th Division moved to Egypt and in November 1915, embarked for Salonika. All this, along with the absence of a medal index card bearing his original number, appears to rule out service overseas.

    Fortress Engineers were raised to provide support for the Royal Garrison Artillery at certain defended ports at home and abroad. Regular Army units principally took responsiblity for those ports abroad and Territorial units for those at home. Prior to the war, Hants Fortress Engineers HQ was at Hampshire Terrace, Portsmouth, with drill halls in Portsmouth and Gosport. They provided 3 Works Companies for maintenance of defences, and 4 Electric Light companies. Given his four figure number, it would appear likely that he was a wartime volunteer, joining in 1914/15 and fell victim to injury or illness whilst at home. Your best bet would be to see if his service record still exists at the National Archive at Kew.

    Out of interest, the RE Museum at Chatham does not hold records for individual soldiers.

    If I can help further , please let me know.

    Terry Reeves
    Thanks to Terry and all who have put my mind to rest about Thomas Norman.
    Thanks Terry for letting me know about the 2nd/2nd Hampshire Fortress Company.
    It seems he was supposed to go overseas like the others but became ill before he went
    and died.At least he didn't have to witness the carnage.
    When I get time I'll have to find out if his service record still exists at the National Archive Kew.
    I'm not worried about the medals its just his story I'm after to help with our family history.
    Thanks again
    Sue Norman

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