How To Find Where He Was Born

[racing girl]

I'm looking for a Francis Palmer, born c1785. The first concrete info I have for him came from the FFHS website, his marriage to Maria Cruttwell:

Groom Francis PALMER aged – occupation draper residing at Wokingham, BRK status bac notes – Bride Maria CRUTTWELL aged – residing at Wokingham, BRK status sp notes – Bondsmen CRUTTWELL William,butcher,Wokingham – to be married at –

The Cruttwells came from Wokingham, Francis I'm not 100% sure of, just that he was "of the Parish" at the time of his marriage.

In 1841 they're living in Chertsey, Surrey, and as it's the 1841 there are no clues as to Francis place of birth, just not in Surrey.

I have his death reference from 1844, aged 59:

Name Francis PALMER Date – – 1844 Aged 59 Place Chertsey Description St Peter Denomination Anglican County code SRY

I've looked for a will, but can't find one. I've also looked at the IGI and there are a lot of them born between 1775 and 1795 and from all over the country too, so too many to choose from. FFHS website only has two.

The only clue I have is the name Langford. It was carried forward as the middle name of one of his sons, grandsons and gt grandsons, and another grandson has it as his first name. I haven't come across it in relation to the Cruttwells, so I'm hoping it will turn up in the Palmer line somewhere.

Can anyone suggest a way forward?

TIA
Brenda

(PS - I've also posted on the Berkshire board, specifically in regard to the Wokingham PR's)

[racing girl]

Bump! Just in case someone new has any advice.

Brenda

[Marie C..]

I have been having a look at places in Surrey.
You say Francis was not born Surrey but I had a look at the FMP 1841 census for him and to me it looks like a yes(born Surrey). The enumerator does a large N when he is writing the NO(not born in County). I think Francis was born Chertsey or close by and returned to live there after marriage to Maria from Wokingham.
Are we looking at same 1841 census? Francis Palmer 55 tallow chandler, wife Maria,55 George 20 Maria15, Robert Crutwell aged 80 and Sarah grey 14 servant. They give Maria's birthplace as Surrey(yes) whereas infact she was born Wokingham which is Berkshire.So it should be NO!
There were Palmers in Cobham, Clapham(Holy Trinity), Chelsham, Chertsey,Esher and Ewell(all Surrey).

Have you the other children of Francis and Maria baptised Chertsey?
Maria,26t Oct 1825, Frank, 28th July 1819,(died 11Jan1821) Robert 11th Nov 1814, George, 31Jan 1817, and Henry Cruttwell Palmer 22Feb 1832. ,Alfred 29Sept 1823
There are also some children of Edwin James and Charlotte Palmer namely, Trevila(there's one for the strange names board!) and Ellen Malina Palmer, Edwin William Nathaniel Palmer(Feb 1847) but they seem a later generation and there is Harry Hilmore or Helmore Palmer
born 1849 son of George and Grace Palmer.

As for the Langford link , the only Langford I could find in any of these areas was an Ann Langford baptised 26th Nov 1815 Chertsey Surrey daughter of Joseph Langford and Rebecca.

I cannot find a baptism for Francis
M
ps you give Maria's father as William. Then who is the Robert Crutwell on the 1841 census with them?
And what name was given for Francis' father at the time of marriage and his occupation?

[Geoffers]

I'm looking for a Francis Palmer, born c1785. The first concrete info I have for him came from the FFHS website, his marriage to Maria Cruttwell - Groom Francis PALMER aged – occupation draper residing at Wokingham, BRK status bac notes – Bride Maria CRUTTWELL aged – residing at Wokingham, BRK status sp notes – Bondsmen CRUTTWELL William

Bondsman! - So the marriage was by licence. Have you seen the parish register entry for the mariage, or just the details from the FFHS web-site?
It may be useful to see the names of the witnesses.

If this was a marriage by licence, does the marriage licence allegation survive? - You may be lucky that it mentions someone about Francis and where he was from. (Try the County Record Office).

If your chap was a draper he was in business and in the hope that he was self-employed (if he married by licence, there's a chance).........Are there any records for Wokingham as to who was in business at this time, which may at least indicate when he first appears in the area. With a date for when he started working there, are there any surviving copyhold/leasehold records; or anything in the manorial records which admit him to set up in business and indicate if he inherited a business or started there.

Any PALMER wills in and around Wokingham which mention leaving a drapers business to a son called Francis?

[racing girl]

Thank you both for your replies!

Marie - I have a copy of the census image for 1841 from A*******y, and to me it looks like a No for Francis being born in Surrey, but I could be wrong, and yes, you have the right family, although on marriage Francis was a Draper and not a Tallow Chandler, is that a bit of an odd profession change? From cloth to candles? I also have the baptisms of the children of Francis and Maria that you listed. I don't know who the Edwin is you've found, but Harry Helmore Palmer is the grandson of Francis (son of George bn 1816) and it's interesting that the name Langford exists in Chertsey.

And yes, sorry, Maria's father is Robert, a butcher from Wokingham, the bondsman was her brother William, also a butcher. I've only seen the wedding reference for Maria and Francis on the FFHS website and also on the IGI, and neither list any info on the father of Francis. What documents are you looking at for the Chertsey info you've found? Is it something I can access online?

Geoff - Good pointers re Francis being in business, I should also apply the same logic to Chertsey to try and find him. I've only seen the marriage ref on the FFHS site and the IGI so I have no extra info at the moment.

Not to confuse the issue further, but I have one more item to add regarding the name Langford:

Alfred Palmer (son of Francis and Maria) married Emma Smith (bn 27 Nov 1827, Holborn) at St Georges, Hannover Sq on 9 Oct 1851. They had three sons (one named Langford Palmer) and a daughter, Clarissa. On the 1881 census Clarissa is enumerated twice, once at home with her family, the second time at the home of her Aunt and Uncle. Her Aunt was Arabella Smith, older sister of Emma, her Uncle was John Hughes, registrar of bmd in 1881. Idly, I searched for the marriage, more out of curiosity than anything else.... and I found Arabella Smith marrying John LANGFORD Hughes at St Georges, Hannover Sq in 1842. According to the IGI (extracted entry), JL Hughes was born to Thomas and Maria Hughes and was baptised at St Mary, Putney on 15 April 1818. Further more, in the 1861 census his occupation was a Tallow Chandler. Coincidence? Probably not, but it's not helping me either at the moment!

Thanks for taking the time to reply,
Brenda

[Marie C..]

Right!
Wonder if Maria Hughes(wife of Thomas) was a Langford before marriage?
Will look at Surrey baptisms CD and see if anything there.
If you look again at 1841 you will see enumerator has got a yes for Maria and it should be No . Wokingham was in Berks when I last knew it! Feel sure Francis was born Surey.
I found the others (yours) on Hugh Wallis. (Google Hugh Wallis and the first one that comes up is the one you want. Click to go to the counrty you want then click on the county and c lick on first letter of place name and up comes the various churches in that place with dates that they have transcribed. At the top right is a box, put surname in and then click search nd itwill bring up(if you are lucky) some of the names you want. Then when the names come up click on each one and youget the parents if its a christening. the I find it helpful though often you just can't find the one you want. You just have to go through all the places around like Chertsey, Esher, Putney, Kingston etc etc and check for roughly the years you want(if listed). Hope this is clear.
I had to do it with my lot in the same areas of Surrey as yours and it is surprising what comes up. It's second best to having the parish registers on fiche or film to look through but it can be quite helpful if you can't get to a record office or fam. hist. centre.
Tallow chandler/ draper? well they often changed their wares . One of mine went from draper to grocer!
But it may be an opportunity came up and he took it?
Need a Kelly's or some such.
Have you looked on a2a?
M

[cvbob1947]

Hello Brenda: I have some information on Maria Crutwell that I can share with you. The Crutwell family is a long time Wokingham family and I am related thru a marriage with Perkins. I have prepared a Crutwell ( Cruttwell ) family booklet which I can send along in a PDF format. My email is comox valley bob at gmail . com ( leave out the spaces and change the at ). Look forward to hearing from you. Bob

[janbooth]

Brenda,

Looking at the FMP 1841 census image I am pretty sure that it states that both Francis & Maria have a no against them, i.e. not born in the county. The household above them has their place of birth written in a totally different hand and the one above that is in the same hand as that of Francis & Maria and the yes and no are quite distinctive.

The Robert CRUTWELL who is living in the same house, but shown as a seperate household, in the 1841 census looks as if he may have died in 1843 as there is a will probated on 26 June 1843 on the National Archives Documents Online website - I wonder if there are any clues in that? Probably a long shot though.

Janet

[janbooth]

Further information via Ancestry's London Parish Registers:

3 September 1806 at St George Hanover Square Thomas HUGHES & Maria LANGFORD both of this parish by banns. Witness: Wm HITCH & Jn STANLEY

There is a Maria HUGHES living in Eaton Place, Belgrave, St George Hanover Square in the 1841 census (HO107/732/4, folio 55, page 25). She is shown as a 65 year old Female Servant not born in the county.

Janet

[janbooth]

One other marriage which may be connected is that of a George GOFF & Jane LANGFORD on 28 October 1800 at St George Hanover Square by banns. Both were of the parish, both signed (as did Thomas & Maria at their marriage) and the witnesses were Jas ANDREWS & Eliza LANGFORD.

Ancestry's London Parish Registers also have the baptism of John Langford HUGHES on 15 April 1818 at St Mary Putney son of Thomas & Maria, Putney, Tallow Chandler.

This may be pure speculation, but there is a baptism on IGI Family Search at Richmond, Surrey on 9 May 1779 of a Jane LANGFORD daughter of John & Elizabeth LANGFORD plus a baptism on 18 February 1874 at St Mary Magdalen Richmond of a Maria LANGFORD daughter of John & Elizabeth LANGFORD. John & Elizabeth's marriage is on Family Search at Richmond in 1771. Might be worthwhile trying to track back John LANGFORD's parents & siblings to see if perhaps there is a PALMER/LANGFORD marriage connection somewhere.

Janet