SAMUEL TIMS GARDNER

[tanginitoo]

Greetings....this is the first of my brick walls!

WILLIAM GARDNER b. abt. 1832 (only census (1861) he is found in claims his birthplace to have been STEPNEY) states on his marriage certificate that his father was SAMUEL TIMS GARDNER, by occupation a CUTLER.

To date I have been unable to find any baptism for a William Gardner with a father by the name of Samuel in any parish throughout Stepney or surrounding areas, for any date. Nor have I been able to find either William or Samuel in the 1841 or 1851 census.

There is, however, a marriage for a SAMUEL TIMS GARDNER and a MARY ANN DITCHER, at St. Anne's, Soho on 1st January 1804

There are baptisms for three possible children to Samuel Tims Gardner in the London area...

FRANCES MARIA GARDNER -parents Samuel Timms Gardner & Mary Ann
born 16 February, 1804, baptised St. Clement Dane 28 April 1805

SAMUEL JAMES GARDNER - born 21 January 1807 baptised St. Clement Dane
29 March 1807

JEMIMA PARKHURST GARDINER - born 9 April 1809 baptised St. Clement Dane
17 September 1809

Is there a missing generation between this Samuel Tims Gardner and my William Gardner?

Time wise the Samuel James Gardner above would fit nicely into my jigsaw if his middle name had been mistranscribed, but a very kind person went to Westminster Archives and looked it up for me and assured me that it was most definitely written as James and not Tims. Could the vicar have misheard Tims for James? But now I am clutching at straws!

The names Tims and Gardner are both prolific in Oxfordshire, and there is actually a baby baptised by the name Samuel Tims Gardner in 1888 but I can see no connection with my family there. I did join the Oxfordshire mailing list once but no-one there was able to help me.

The above names do not correspond with any known names in my Gardner family and actually sound a little posh to be connected with my labourer/stevedore Gardners from the east end of London (or even a cutler, who could conceivably simply be a knife seller)!

If there is anyone on this forum who could help me with any suggestions to break down this long standing brick wall, I would be most appreciative.

Thanking anyone who has taken the time to read this far....
Cheers Tanginitoo in Tropical Far North Queensland, Australia

[bumblebee]

could this be him in 1871

Poplar All Saints,

15 .....more Street

Amelia Gardener 18 Born Limehouse
Ann Gardener 36 Born Stratford Middlesex
William Gardener 38 born London, Carman
William Gardener 15 born Limehouse
Emma Gardner 11 born Limehouse

RG10; Piece: 585; Folio: 49; Page: 9


If this is him in 1861 just comparing the family with the above

Amelia Gardner 8 born Limehouse
Anne Gardner 28 born Stepney
Emma Gardner 4 born Stepney
Samuel Gardner 1 Mo born Stepney
William Gardner 29 Born Stepney, Dock Labourer
William Gardner 6 born Limehouse

Piece: 295; Folio: 72; Page: 8


Bumblebee

[tanginitoo]

Hi Bumblebee, Thankyou so much for your quick reply!

Duh! Don't know why I said about the 1861 being the only census I found William in....think I meant to write the 'earliest' rather than the 'only' one! Another of those senior moments I think!!!!!

Yes, I do have the 1871 census you also found, and the 1891 and 1901 as well. These three all state his birthplace to be London (one looks like it says London EC, but the EC has a big black line through it, so it is difficult to know for sure.

I have almost definitely ruled out all the parishes in and around Stepney (courtesy of Docklands Ancestors) so where on earth do I start in London...there are hundreds of parishes and I would probably need the rest of this life and another too, to go through them all!!!!

If anyone happens to have any parish records that they can look at for me (to eliminate said parishes if nothing else), please could they look up a William Gardner (Gardener, Gardiner) born about 1832 - father Samuel Tims Gardner a cutler.

Also, maybe someone can recommend a c.d. that I could buy which covers most or all parishes of London, to do my own searching!

Unfortunately the LDS Family History Centre where I live has reduced it's opening hours so drastically over recent years I simply cannot get there for the couple of hours it now opens, which leaves me with only the Internet to fall back on for my research.

Again, many thanks, Tanginitoo

[josie gardner]

hi there, besides the gardner, gardiner, gardener, try garner, i am a gardner and my neice is tracing the gardner tree. She has found a garner, and it's definately the right one.
josie

[Raffaele]

Could the vicar have misheard Tims for James?

In all the documents you have researched did they place their mark or sign their name.
If it was a mark then they were illiterate and would not know how the Vicar had interpreted their name.

I was asked a question recently why in the 1600's through to the 1800's names changed.

My answer, easy with Norfolk. Take a well educated Vicar who grew up in good quarters and have him listen to a broad Norfolk accent.
As he was the only one who could read and write whatever he thought he heard ended up on the paper.
Some of them are hard to understand even today!

[Mutley]

Sometimes if a child is illegitimate or their parents died/disappeared while they were young and they were brought up by the grandparents or another family then they could enter the name of the grandfather/head on a marriage certificate as being the only father they knew.

This could explain the generation gap and why you cannot find the baptism of William with a Samuel as his father.

I've looked at his marriage certificate and there are no real clues. His wife, Ann Belsham's married sister (Sarah) and her husband were the witnesses.

They were living at Princes Place, Canal Road but I doubt they were there in 1851 though you may like to scout around the area. District 7, Mile End Old Town Lower.
HO107 piece 1553

P.S. Strangely, in the description of the enumeration district there are the roads including Princes Place and at the end it says "Bridge Terrace, about 6 acres of land in the occupation of Mr. Gardner".

[tanginitoo]

hi there, besides the gardner, gardiner, gardener, try garner, i am a gardner and my neice is tracing the gardner tree. She has found a garner, and it's definately the right one.
josie

Many thanks for your suggestion. Yes, I have already researched Garner as well as every possible other spelling for Garner, but no joy there. Thanks for taking the time to write though Josie, it is much appreciated. Diana

[tanginitoo]

Many thanks for taking the time to reply to my post. Yes, although I live in Australia, I was born and bred in England, and lived in many different areas, so am well aware of the different accents. I have also been doing family history research for many many years and am very used to names being spelt in different ways. I have one in Cornwall for which I have come across 9 different spellings to date. Many thanks again, Diana

[tanginitoo]

Following my original post on this Forum I have done hundreds more hours of research on my ancestors William Gardner b. 1832 and his father Samuel Tims Gardner, but I have not been able to knock down my brick wall as yet.

I have, however, come across a baptism at Christ Church, Spitalfields for an Eliza Gardner with parents Samuel & Mary Gardner, Samuel being a cutler, and I am convinced this is a brother of my William, especially as Eliza was born in 1831 and William supposedly in 1832. One census lists him as being born in SE London, so I guess Spitalfields could be considered to be SE at a pinch!

My feelings at this point in time are that the Samuel Tims Gardner who was married to Mary Ann Ditcher at St. Anne's, Soho are actually my Williams parents, but I am loathe to enter them in my tree until I am at least 98% certain.

Many thanks to everyone for their help and suggestions. Onward goes the search, Cheers Diana

[tanginitoo]

Many thanks for your letter Muttley. Yes, I have already established the information that you sent me and some more besides, but I can find no reason to believe that the land mentioned in the description of the enumeration district owned by a Mr. Gardner is related to my Gardner family, and is purely a strange coincidence. I have though, made a note about it in case something comes to light later. I tend to think that the description Cutler as an occupation is hardly likely to make the person wealthy enough to own 6 acres of land in those days, and anyway, all the rest of the family are listed in census records as labourers.

I do thank you very much for your interest though. Happy hunting, Diana